If you're pro Self ID for trans people please could you explain it to me?

[ReluctantCamper]

I have never debated with anyone who's pro self ID because they invariably post 'transwomen are women' on threads and never return.

When I have arrived at a thought out position I'm keen to debate it with others who think differently to test my reasoning - that's how I feel now.

I know we have a number of pro self ID lurkers - anyone feel like explaining to me why it's a good idea?

I promise to carefully read what you say and take it seriously, I don't promise to agree.

Come on, it's my birthday, someone treat me!

[Greensmurfterf]

I honestly don't understand anyone supporting gender self I'D.

[TheGoldenBough]

I think the thing that always strikes me about these threads is that there are lengthy, detailed and well thought out logical perspectives from the people who are anti self ID. Any question can be answered.

Whereas those who say they are pro self ID say it, back it up with a "inclusive", "twaw", "be nice" soundbite but aren't able to construct an argument that stands up to any scrutiny whatsoever.

Given that this appears to be going ahead regardless, I would really like to realise that I'm worried about nothing, or over reacting, or just to have someone construct an argument for self ID that makes me think, "Yeah, actually, when you look at it like that..." but I haven't seen it yet.

[TheGoldenBough]

I see what’s happened. I don’t support self ID. I think the arguments are about different things. There’s nothing stopping people wearing what they want and I haven’t seen any argument for people not being allowed to do something they want..

Exactly!

[Greensmurfterf]

Sorry sent before finished post!

It's obviously going to allow predatory men to access women and children. A local paedophile broke the front legs of a puppy so it was crying and children came to see it. Self ID means that man can say he's a woman and waltz into changing rooms etc.

Plus it will end women's sport which makes my blood boil.

[Myunicornfliessideways]

I haven’t seen any argument for people not being allowed to do something they want..

Well actually those arguments do exist. Some of the ones I've seen are debating wants like:

'I want to be able to give this woman a smear test' ^even though she requested a female sex health professional and we both know she doesn't want me to do it'

'I want to work in this refuge with domestically abused women' even though I know my presence will alarm, distress and in some cases prevent those women from accessing this service

'I want to shower in this shower alongside women' ^even though I know that many of those women are deeply uncomfortable about a naked male alongside them, and that some groups of women will no longer be able to access this facility'

I could go on. In all these cases, the reason for persisting with that 'I want' is the right to be validated despite how anyone else may be affected, may feel, may need, or what they may lose.

The answer to this is not 'oh be kind and suck it up'. Kindness and any other social contract necessitates a two way contract. Mutual respect, mutual kindness, mutual care.

[Nonibaloni]

I want to give this woman a smear test - I refuse a smear test from a specific woman without giving reason.

I want to work in a woman’s refuge- you’re welcome to apply but you will be measured same as everyone else and a blanant disregard of the feelings of a vulnerable woman means you’re not getting the job.

The shower thing needs to be afdressed. And it goes beyond not wanting to shower next to a man. If you don’t want to be naked in front of anyone you should have that option. Cubicles are expensive but they are the future.

[OvaHere]

Noni I don't think orgs will apply those reasonings though. The case in Canada where a DV shelter was almost bankrupt by a TIM insisting they were discriminating is one example. He kept the litigation up for 10 years!

All these orgs and businesses are scared to fight back and apply common sense.

[Datun]

I want to give this woman a smear test - I refuse a smear test from a specific woman without giving reason.

You ask for another woman, you get another man.

The point, I think that you're missing, is that the cohort of trans-women who are fetishists, will make an absolute point of tying everybody up with their shenanigans.

It's not a neutral ask. It's an ask with a purpose.

The women's rape refuge? A trans-woman tied them up for 12 bloody years going all the way to the High Court because he wanted to work there. Costing hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Any normal person would see the 'blanant disregard of the feelings of a vulnerable woman' was self evident.

But once things are enshrined in law, it's immaterial.

"We think he looks like a dodgy perv" Will get you nowhere.

[OvaHere]

Cross post Datun

My bad - it was 12 years!!!

[TheGoldenBough]

I want to give this woman a smear test - I refuse a smear test from a specific woman without giving reason.

The thing is though that many women would be afraid of speaking out; hurting someone's feelings; being seen as 'transphobic' and find it difficult to do that. I know that I would find it very difficult.

Futhermore, when this very situation occured recently, the woman involved said, "I'm sorry I asked for a woman" and the manly nurse in a dress, complete with gruff voice and stubble said, "I am a woman". She wasn't listened to and ended up walking out without her smear test. That is the reality.

I want to work in a woman’s refuge- you’re welcome to apply but you will be measured same as everyone else and a blanant disregard of the feelings of a vulnerable woman means you’re not getting the job

I sincerely hope that this would be the case.

The shower thing needs to be afdressed. And it goes beyond not wanting to shower next to a man. If you don’t want to be naked in front of anyone you should have that option. Cubicles are expensive but they are the future.

The problem is, without open discussion and consultation, these concerns and issues are not aired. Therefore solutions are not proposed. My fear is that we will be hearing "lessons have been learned..." for a good few years to come.

[Myunicornfliessideways]

Ok, to take the first example:

Does every woman have the confidence to refuse a smear test if they're uncomfortable with the person who arrives to do it? It's lovely you do, women being assertive about their boundaries and bodies is something I wish all women and girls were helped to learn and feel able to do. But what about the ones who don't?

Especially if they feel that having asked for a female HCP that someone with stubble arriving and saying they are the female HCP has already breached their trust? (And this has actually happened.)

Is fear of the person getting cross or hurting their feelings, or anxiety about being called transphobic, or worry that asking for a female HCP may mean a self identified woman rather than a biological woman likely to put some women off attending for smear tests? What about groups who for religious reasons will not be allowed to receive intimate care of any kind from a man?

Is it acceptable for women to end up going through with smears that they experience as deeply invasive and distressing because it was too difficult for that woman to say no? Is a reduction in the number of women willing to have smear tests/parallel increase of late diagnosis cervical cancer a fair and reasonable price to pay for removing the exemption of transwomen from giving intimate care to some women who prefer someone of the same sex? (Plenty of women won't care, but also plenty will.)

It's just not that simple.

[TheGoldenBough]

"We think he looks like a dodgy perv" Will get you nowhere.

No, but I do think that a man would lack the skills and experience to even get shortlisted for interview if I'm perfectly honest.

I think the women who work in rape crisis centres/refuges are very aware of women's vulernabilities and the legitimate fears of women and tend to be very passionate about their cause.

I don't think they would centre the feelings of men, wearing identifying as women or not, over those of actual women who have been abused at the hands of men.

Or at least I'd hope this would be the case...

[PencilsInSpace]

Or at least I'd hope this would be the case...

Me too but I've pretty much lost faith in organisations' ability to apply common sense over this. Women's Aid are currently reviewing their policies with a view to the possibility of allowing TIMs to be front line staff in women's refuges. They've been getting pressure for a few years from TRAs.

twitter.com/womensaid/status/486896812880445441

[Nonibaloni]

Please don’t think I’m burying my head in the sand. I think self ID is nonsense.
What I want is sex Ed in school should be thorough and clear. 12 year old girls should know there rights and debating this kind of issue.
I’m not shouting anyone down. I think the issues are not the issues ifykwim.

[OvaHere]

You have to beg the question, given how tiny a % of the population we are told TIMs are, why are they so keen to get into DV & Rape services and provide intimate services to females?

That question alone should ring massive alarm bells.

Are TIFs clamouring to work in gay men's sexual health or insisting on their rights to give prostate exams regardless of whether the patient wants a male Dr? If not - why not?

[OvaHere]

And to add the whole business with Oxfam and male charity workers should really give pause for thought to the people reviewing DV shelter policies about males being given access.

[TheGoldenBough]

You have to beg the question, given how tiny a % of the population we are told TIMs are, why are they so keen to get into DV & Rape services and provide intimate services to females?

That question alone should ring massive alarm bells.

Absolutely.

I read in one article that 0.1 - 0.5% of the population 'identify as trans'. If that is the case then, even if they argued for proportional representation, that would only be 1 - 5 in every 1000 employees. Yet they seem to be over represented in their desire to fit bras, counsel rape/DV victims and perform intimiate body searches.

It does rather beg the question of why they aren't clamouring to be nail technicians or cleaners or secretaries or any of the other 'typically female' jobs that don't proviced access to semi/fully naked, vulnerable women.

[MrsMcGarry]

OK - I don't really have time for this, but seeing as it is your birthday. And seeing as I am interested in a reasoned debate on this issue which all too often doesn't happen. (I've been insulted here for pro-trans views before)

And please don't get hung up on the use of specific language in my post - one of the issues is that different words mean different concepts to different people so I will try to explain what I earn by the rods I use, which I fully accept may be different from how you use them.

I don't think that the world specifically discriminates against women or people with vagina's. I think it discriminates against people who are not "men". And by men I mean people who present as straight and masculine - our stereotypical view of a manly man. So I think anything that enables anyone to live and be accepted and succeed as something other than a "man" is a good thing.

I don't agree with feminists who fight for "womens' rights". I think we should be fighting for rights and equality for all people, and that within that fight we must recognise that there are groups (BAME, women, disabled, trans, gay and many others) who have been historically denied rights and therefore need more action to get them equal rights.

I think that the majority of discrimination that women face is down to the social construct of gender rather than biology. I don't see that Thatcher's premiership was a triumph for feminsim becasue she gained power by acting like a stereotypical man, as have many women in the recent past. I want to build a future where stereotypically feminine traits are celebrated as well as streotypically masculine traits, and I feel that the feminist agenda which insists on biological sex as being the key differentiating factor can only be detrimental to that.

I also have an issue with the misandry prevalent in SOME of the anti-trans voices ( I do recognise that not all people who are against self-id are anti-trans but there are many) Yes, men as a class commit the vast majority of violent crimes. But that doesn't mean that any individual man is more likely than any individual woman to be violent. We rightly abhor assumptions about an individual on the basis of race, but seem happy to do it on the basis of genitalia (and saying that woman have had assumptions made about them for years is true but doesn't excuse the same behaviour they other way). I know transwomen who could show far more empathy towards victims of violence in a woman's refuge than I could, and to blanket ban them from ever being able to so just because they used to have penises seems wrong to me.

Having said that, I do recognise (as do many of the saner voices on the self-ID side of the debate) that there are extreme viewpoints on the trans side as well and some of the crap they spout is , well, crap. An individual lesbian who doesn't fancy an individual transwomen is no more transphobic that I am racist for admitting that actually, Idris Elba doesn't appeal to me. And I do think that any person should have the right to refuse medical treatment from any other person based on anything they want without being accused of being phobic or "ist" but I don't think the right to refuse treatment based on a particular characteristic should be enshrined in law - that's state sanctioned discrimination. I think there needs to be control over who can take part in sports - but I would prefer to see that based on scientific evidence of unfairness such as levels of hormones or measured muscle density rather than the genitalia someone had at birth.

[Tinycitrus]

I think that the majority of discrimination that women face is down to the social construct of gender rather than biology.

No no - gender constructs stem from women’s biology. Biology - specifically women’s fertility has always been a battleground.

Having children - or choosing not to or bring unable to - is a uniquely female experience Driven by an intersection of biology and gender expectations right from when a biological female is born. It shapes everything.

Transwomen also have unique experiences which are bound up with gender and fertility etc - but these are different.

[DodoPatrol]

No, hold on, I think MrsMcgarry is right when she says the (male) world esssentially discriminates against anyone who doesn’t fit the straight male stereotype. I’m with you so far. Also with you on the fact that however much we might like it, the stereotypes exist and the feminine one is rated lower than gbd masculine.

I still don’t believe that male+feminine stereotype = female though.

I don’t see how I can make myself believe that.

[DodoPatrol]

No idea what gbd should have been in that post.

[TheGoldenBough]

The thing is, MrsMcGarry, I don't disagree with you on some of your points.

Except that trans rights activists aren't arguing for safe spaces for transpeople, they are specifically arguing for transwomen to be women. The access to women's spaces is a by product of that.

We are not divided into Men (as in stereotypical alpha male men) and Not Men whereby the needs of stereotypical alpha males can be met in one environment and the needs over everyone else can be met in another. Transpeople have specific needs and experiences, women have specific needs and experiences. Those two groups of people are not the same, and neither are their needs and experiences, just because none of use are 'stereotypical men'.

If transpeople want protection and safety from men, why not argue for a third transgender space?

What about the women who don't feel comfortable being around any sort of man; stereotypical or not? When they are vulnerable/alone/in a state of undress? Where do they go? Women who've been raped or escaped violent relationships and have PTSD? Where do they go? Where are their needs met?

[TheGoldenBough]

As Dodo said, not being a stereotypical, straight, alpha male does not make you a woman.

We are not the default "everything else". We are a class of people in our own right. Just like men are.

MrsMcGarry what is your take on some of the incredibly aggressive misogyny aimed at women by some transwomen who are very vocal and politically active?

[picklemepopcorn]

Great thread. Please stick around pro self ID people!

One of the differences in perspective, I think is related to NAMALT.

Most men are not sex abusers but most sex abusers are men.

Sex offenders and violent criminals seem to be disproportionately represented among AGP TIMs. There seems to be an element of narcissism among the TRAs which makes them dangerous by definition. And these are the people who are pushing self ID. The very fact they want it so badly, makes me nervous.

Individual trans people I have no problem with. Any intact man in a women's changing room, almost by definition, regardless of what gender they identify as.

[OvaHere]

I don't agree with feminists who fight for "womens' rights". I think we should be fighting for rights and equality for all people, and that within that fight we must recognise that there are groups (BAME, women, disabled, trans, gay and many others) who have been historically denied rights and therefore need more action to get them equal rights.

Feminism by definition is about females. Of course people can fight for whatever causes they feel strongly about but it's not feminism. Why should women pick up all the emotional labour for every other cause under the sun?

It's this sort of attitude that precludes women ever putting themselves first, having anything of their own. If feminists from years and decades gone by had been forced to include every other groups woes we would never have got the vote and the countless other things we take for granted now.

If this is the mindset it explains to a point why you think the sex category of woman should subsume any male who wants in. I profoundly disagree because it's the fastest way to destroy all progress made by women and prevent us ever clawing it back.

Yes, men as a class commit the vast majority of violent crimes.

But that doesn't mean that any individual man is more likely than any individual woman to be violent.

These two statements seem at odds with each other because if you take the first to be true (which it is) then statistically an individual man is more likely than an individual woman to be violent.

Women know this which is why they are more wary of being around men than other women and until the recent explosion of pomo politics society as a whole knew this too hence why we have sex segregation.