If you're pro Self ID for trans people please could you explain it to me?

[ReluctantCamper]

I have never debated with anyone who's pro self ID because they invariably post 'transwomen are women' on threads and never return.

When I have arrived at a thought out position I'm keen to debate it with others who think differently to test my reasoning - that's how I feel now.

I know we have a number of pro self ID lurkers - anyone feel like explaining to me why it's a good idea?

I promise to carefully read what you say and take it seriously, I don't promise to agree.

Come on, it's my birthday, someone treat me!

[BigDeskBob]

One of the best slight of hand tricks in all of this are people believing that women doesn't equal female. Once you believe that, trans ideology starts to make sense, or at least you stop questioning it.

When has a women truly being thought of as a man because of the clothes she wears, the job she does or the power tools she uses? When a women has a hysterectomy or goes through the menopause, she doesn't get told she is no longer female and a women.

A women has always been an adult human female, it's nothing to do with gender or presentation or inner feelings.

[TheGoldenBough]

Also, sex offenders are a small class of men

Is that what you took from #metoo and subsequent revelations?

[Glitched]

Why can't you be inclusive to trans people? You wouldn't say only white people can be British.

[BeUpStanding]

Great idea for a thread... can we try to keep this as a space for people who support self-ID to talk about why, without immediately bashing them down with our logic? Most of us here have spend a significant amount of time reading, thinking and talking about why self-ID is a terrible thing for women's rights (myself included). There are no doubt lots of people only just starting to think about this issue who can't see why its such a big problem or those who have been following the debate and think we're all hysterical / over reacting.

If we could give them space and time here to talk about their thoughts, whilst being appreciative that they're stepping into the bearpit of FWR to do so, I think it can only be a good thing.

[Nonibaloni]

What I took from #metoo was that sex offensives are massively under reported and under punished. And you’re a bloody idiot if you didn’t know that. I assumed everyone knew these unspoken rules. But what I meant was that’s what should change. I’m definitely not NAMALT and I think prosecutions should extend to people that new or suspected and did nothing.

My attitude to competitive sport I dare not speak on a public forum. Honestly I would be torn to shreds.

[Datun]

Glitched

Why can't you be inclusive to trans people? You wouldn't say only white people can be British.

Okay. When you say inclusive, what specifically do you mean?

Do you mean that transwomen and women are completely interchangeable? When it comes to sport, prisons, refuges, shortlists, toilets, locker rooms, etc?

Do you think some should be sex segregated or none?

[Ereshkigal]

Thegoldenbough, no. Those people are not trans people they are criminals. Worrying yes, but this thread is about trans people, not criminals. Those people are not their fault.

Why aren't they trans people? What do you think "trans" means exactly?

[ReluctantCamper]

Not necessarily. They may just have something wrong with them, like someone born with a missing finger is no less human. I'm not going to go looking for links for you as I'm on MN for fun, not as a job.

Fair enough Gwenhwyfar, I just thought your position might be a researched one and you would be able to share any information that had helped you reach it.

[McTufty]

@glitched that is a phenomenally bad analogy.

[Datun]

Not all 'cis' women have everything in working order though. Some are born without a vagina or a womb or ovaries or have to have womb/ovaries taken out for some reason. If you judge people on having a working set of reproductive organs, you'd exclude a lot of women born female too.

I don't know where this idea came from.

If a girl is born without a vagina, she will be examined by a doctor and her parents will say what's happened?

When boys are born, the parents do not ask the doctor what has happened to his vagina.

[YTho]

Perhaps there are people like me who don't think it's the most important thing on their agenda. Also, some may think that an individualistic approach is better than a sex based approach. Perhaps we could look at other countries that have self Id laws implemented and learn from them in terms of what has worked and what hasn't.

[Nonibaloni]

mctufy at first glance Rebecca Reilly Cooper seems to be saying more clearly what I was trying to say. But I only heard the name today so will need more examination.
Sex isn’t a spectrum. I would agree with that.

[Glitched]

Inclusive means accepting that trans people (not just trans women) are the gender they are and not treating them differently or being prejudice towards them.

[ReluctantCamper]

I really am going to have to go out in a minute. I feel terrible, like a hostess who invites everyone round and fucks off out for dinner!

Nonibaloni, I think I'm very close to your position (even the beard sadly).

I think women's prisons is the most worrying scenario as they are so vulnerable and have no choice, with refuges coming a close second.

[Glitched]

@Mctufty if you say so. Still true though.

[Datun]

Also, some may think that an individualistic approach is better than a sex based approach.

YTho

Can you explain what you mean by that? For instance, How would a Health Authority work out who they send smear test letters to?

Oh, when Wimbledon comes around, how do they work out who plays whom?

Or when a company is calculating how much money they need to provide for maternity provision, how would they do that?

[LifelongVaginaOwner]

Glitched. Why are you conflating sex with gender?

[TheGoldenBough]

But what I meant was that’s what should change. I’m definitely not NAMALT and I think prosecutions should extend to people that new or suspected and did nothing.

My concerns with self id is that that the significant and sizeable minority of men who do do this, will simply identify as women in order to make it easier for them to do so.

And, according to the self ID rules, they will be allowed to do this.

No requirement to 'live as a woman'; no requirement to present as a woman whilst they are identifying as one; no requirement to undergo any physical or hormonal change. They will be unchanged physically. The biological sex aspects of them that led to us securing sex segregated spaces in the first place, will be unchanged.

And, as a couple of people have already explained, in the eyes of the law and the vocal transcommunity, they are not only just as valid trans as people who change sex, but more so as the people with gender dysphoria (who are the people most people think of when they hear 'trans') aren't recognised by this new vocal transcommunity.

[Lovesagin]

Can someone who supports self id please tell me how I know I am a woman?

TIA

[OvaHere]

Perhaps we could look at other countries that have self Id laws implemented and learn from them in terms of what has worked and what hasn't.

I think that would be a start and ties in with the risk assessments and safeguarding many of us have been repeatedly asking for. But...this would require some honesty in media reporting and statistical analysis in the first place. Therein lies some of the issue - in countries that already have self ID how do we get an accurate picture of what is going on?

[Tinycitrus]

Isn’t there basically two issues here?

1. Arthur wants to be Martha. As an individual i would expect him to be treated with respect, referred to as ‘her’ and ‘she’ and allowed to go about their daily business treated with courtesy and respect. You should respect people because they are people and life is hard - that is how I was brought up anyway.
   
   
2. Legal/ policy changes - this would afford much better examination of the implications of GRA for our society as a whole without being fettered by fears of being called a bigot. Questions should be asked: What does it mean for women’s sport? Prisons? Schools? How do we manage this?
   
   At the moment there structural changes to our society that are happening without any proper examination of the implications and that is frustrating.
   
   And the sub text is that any concerns women have as a group are swept aside because (cis) women are the supporters and the breeders and should know their place is to accommodate everyone else.

[Datun]

Glitched

Inclusive means accepting that trans people (not just trans women) are the gender they are and not treating them differently or being prejudice towards them.

Okay, great. So does that mean socially? Somebody used the social empathy, which I quite like.

Or does it mean in terms of legislation?

And are you just confining this to people who are trans? Or any man? And how do you tell the difference?

( I'm using males as examples, rather than females, because trans-men dont really disadvantage women)

[Datun]

• term, social empathy

[LifelongVaginaOwner]

Yes Tinycitrus that’s the distinction that I’d make. I really don’t think it’s particularly considered by many of the ‘transwomen are women’ people tbh.

[YTho]

Datun, I'm just trying to think of reasons why some people don't seem to have an issue with self Id. Maybe if it came to that, in your examples the letters could be send to anyone identifying as woman or maybe registration forms would separate gender from sex. Sports might end up with other categories based on physical differences rather than sex. Etc. That's why it would be handy to know what other countries are doing about these issues.