Bastard bingo around the campfire

[helplesshopeless]

Hi everyone...creating thread number 2 (or at least, attempting to...!) Link to old thread here

If that link doesn't work, I'll be forever indebted to any of you more mumsnet savvy folks helping me out!

I'll come back in a bit to post properly, thank you all again for your help and support

[helplesshopeless]

and thank you to @alcemeg for the thread title inspiration

[Alcemeg]

🤣🤣🤣 I'm in!!!!! and have taken my place eagerly at the fireside 🥰

[Cavagirl]

🤣 brilliant thread name!!!

I'd have preferred "Jane Austen Style Wedding Planning" though

[Alcemeg]

@Cavagirl

🤣 brilliant thread name!!!

I'd have preferred "Jane Austen Style Wedding Planning" though

😂 perhaps that will be the title of the next thread 😍

[QuentinBunbury]

Well done

[Cavagirl]

I meant to tag you there @ Cavagirl and @ helplesshopeless about the 'good girl' thing. FFS, one time at school I took some colouring pens and hid them in my bag so for once in my life I would actually get into trouble, and when someone told the teacher who had the pens, she refused to believe it was me, and the other girl got sent out of the class!!!!
Sometimes this is why I do want to reveal that I had a OM so that DH will realise the seriousness of the situation, and that I'm actually a human being.
A woman, ffs.

@19Bears I've been thinking about this, also in relation to OP's situation.

Is it that you want him to see you differently?

Or is it that you want him to believe you've done something so bad, he wants to end it, so the responsibility to leave no longer sits solely with you?

If part of your identity and feeling like you're "safe" in how you're behaving is being a Good Girl, taking big decisions which negatively impact others feels very very unsafe and uncomfortable indeed. I love your example about the colouring pencils. Interestingly though - it was the recognition from others that you weren't a Good Girl that you're looking for, which ultimately means you're asking for validation that being NAGG is OK. The really scary thing is to just go off and do it, and fuck what anyone else thinks, because you're confident that what you're doing is right for you and you know that better than them, and they're wrong.

One of the biggest (and most ridiculous) revelations I've had getting older is that sometimes (often) Other People are totally wrong and in fact I was right.

[Alcemeg]

@Cavagirl
Excellent point.
The really scary thing is to just go off and do it, and fuck what anyone else thinks, because you're confident that what you're doing is right for you and you know that better than them, and they're wrong. ... One of the biggest (and most ridiculous) revelations I've had getting older is that sometimes (often) Other People are totally wrong and in fact I was right.

I think what makes this particular situation (leaving a controlling relationship) so incredibly difficult is that in my own experience, and I'm sure many others, you have to act without any particular confidence in what you're doing; you absolutely don't think you know better than them (quite the reverse; a lifetime's habit of automatic deference to their expectations), etc. Plus not wanting to hurt them / cause any trouble / etc etc etc.

Only when you are safely out of the relationship can you begin to build trust in your own judgement. And I think the biggest boost to this is when you reach the point where you look back in wonder at what you managed to achieve, and realise "To think I agonised over that for so long, when it was so obviously the right way forward!" -- and then you can't quite believe you managed the absolute miracle of escaping from all the mental prisons that kept you trapped.

It goes back to that "fake it till you make it" thing about having to force yourself to act as though you do trust yourself, even when you don't... because it's the only way you will ever start to grow in that direction of becoming a person who no longer trashes themselves on the altar of other people's damaged egos. So many relationships are twisted out of shape in this world, it's good to put at least your relationship with yourself on course to flourish in a more healthy environment.

[19Bears]

Absolutely spot on @Cavagirl and the lord @Alcemeg waves hands frantically in agreement**

I am ALWAYS doubting myself and ALWAYS assume I am wrong about EVERYTHING!!!!
Opinions are wrong, decisions are wrong, principles are wrong, actions are wrong, constantly. If the phone rings at work and I can hear the boss talking about something has been made wrong, I immediately think it's something I've done and my heart starts to pound. I will never fight my corner on something, because I am so scared I've got it all wrong and will look like a fool, so I keep quiet about everything. But when I have dared to comment on anything political on twitter for example, apparently I'm being passive aggressive. Yes, he spies on my twitter. He's not actually on twitter, but little does he realise that I can see his google search history on my dc's tablet and it goes

Arsenal transfer news
ebay
Nigel Farage
my name
other shit...

Is even this normal? I know you called him odd, @peridito. Too right, he is.

Anyway, so yes @Cavagirl, having spent so much of my life assuming I'm wrong, maybe I've been right all bloody along!!! -
One of the biggest (and most ridiculous) revelations I've had getting older is that sometimes (often) Other People are totally wrong and in fact I was right.

And this is also so very true @Alcemeg Only when you are safely out of the relationship can you begin to build trust in your own judgement. And I think the biggest boost to this is when you reach the point where you look back in wonder at what you managed to achieve, and realise "To think I agonised over that for so long, when it was so obviously the right way forward!" -- and then you can't quite believe you managed the absolute miracle of escaping from all the mental prisons that kept you trapped.

In the words of Howard Jones, throw off your mental chains. Woo hoo hoo.

Sometimes coming on here blows your mind! I feel like I can see so clearly! Then I go home and end up lost in the blinkin fog again.......

[Alcemeg]

@19Bears I still get that feeling of messing up, even though I've been very successfully self-employed for years now.

In the words of Howard Jones, throw off your mental chains. Woo hoo hoo.

I like Funkadelic's "Free yo mind and yo ass will follow" 😎

[FantasticButtocks]

I'm just copying my last message from the old thread here:

Wallywobbles
Yes @peridito I've read it all. And I disagree that the OP doesn't care what others think. It comes up again and again. People will think it's all her fault because of the affair. Too ashamed to tell her family. His family and friends will blame her because of the affair. It's not the only thing keeping her there but it is certainly playing a part.
I agree with you on this.

Fear of being the one who looks to be at fault if the marriage breaks up, fear that this is how he will present it to the world... because "affair" is a tangible crime. But what he's been doing for years is not! Because you'd have had to actually be in this marriage to understand the intricacies of the impact of that.

So a fear that the world will say ah their marriage is over, because she had an affair.

It takes a lot of work and courage to get to the stage of not giving a shit what anyone else might think.

[KatySun]

Hello 👋
I was up too early so am now trying to get through the day on caffeine. So nothing much to add except that.

[helplesshopeless]

Hello all, coming back to respond in more detail to some of your messages (now I’ve managed to get a bit of work done!)

I think a happy single parented home is ALWAYS preferable to an angst ridden house with two deeply unhappy people or an abusive dynamic

I absolutely agree with this and have no qualms at all about being a single parent in those circumstances (now I’ve actually managed to unpick what that abusive dynamic was in my case). I think I am struggling with this because we do have a lovely time as a family, and as far as our daughter is concerned we are a happy couple at the moment. She has witnessed some cross words in the past, but things are so much calmer now. I’ve always been good at putting on a ‘show’ in front of our daughter to protect her from any unpleasantness, and now that the unpleasantness is gone (hopefully for good), I think I would be good at putting on a good show of being a happy mummy in a happy relationship. So I’m really sad to think of those happy family times disappearing for her, purely because of my own feelings.

However, I’m not completely naïve in that I know I couldn’t maintain that show for my husband in terms of giving him what he wants and needs (i.e. love and affection) – and I suppose that is where it would all unravel as he would naturally begin to feel resentment. And outside of everything else, he deserves to have someone who loves and appreciates him for him, which I don’t feel able to do. I guess that ties in with what you have said @peridito in that for ‘love’ we mean all those other issues like trust, respect, tolerating human failures because we appreciate the whole person, knowing that our love is reciprocated. I really do want him to have that, as well as me.

@Mix56, yes, you’re right that he doesn’t respect my boundaries in certain areas (for reasons previously mentioned). It’s irritating me a bit at the moment actually because due to this heat I’m wearing quite short shorts today, and he keeps doing a silly pervy neck tilt to try and look up them (it’s embarrassing even trying to explain that). I’ve told him not to a few times and snapped at him earlier saying that it was creepy. He later came to speak to me to say he understands that I’m not in that ‘zone’ but he feels incredibly rejected by me (whilst also being very attracted to me), so while he was trying to not make comments, some will ‘slip’ out and I needed to be kind to him about that. But I just think come on, it’s not that hard not to leer at me!

@wallywobbles – yes, I think you’re right that I have been agonising over how this will all be painted. I feel a lot calmer about that at the moment because my husband has stopped going on about how terrible I’ve been and how everyone is going to hate me (and probably also due to the support you have all being giving me in that respect)! I think I’ve got to a place where I accept I can’t control what people will think about me, but I know those that matter to me will not judge me. My only remaining concern in that area is if my husband chooses to spread unpleasant rumours about me at work (as he used to work with me so has friends there still). I’m not sure what to do with that but I’ll have to just suck it up if it comes to it!

Aligning our outer world with our inner world can be excruciatingly difficult, and yet living without doing so is no life at all - this sounds like it’s come straight out of an extremely wise book, @Alcemeg That is exactly what I need to do, but I have no idea if I have the strength to achieve it.

Do you think you might actually bring yourself one day to say to him something like “I’m sorry, I really appreciate how hard you’re trying, but even if you made twice the effort I have no faith in a future together?” It’s funny you should say that actually, because he’s asked me several times whether there is anything at all he can do. I’ve basically said no, and that my working assumption is that he is going to eradicate all of his past abusive behaviour and be a kind person, but that in that best case scenario I still needed to work out if I could ‘unfreeze’ and develop any feelings for him. So he does know that, and he says he feels incredibly hopeless and helpless (he actually used those words eek!).

Might it be now you have recognised some of his major issues, you find him offputting as a whole, including some less important niggles, simple as it is part of the same package?

Yes! That’s exactly it, you’ve summarised my feelings really well actually. This is why I genuinely think there is nothing he can do, and its all down to me working out my feelings (or maybe rather working up the courage to actually place value in my feelings).

@19bears – I also had a moment at school when I attempted to rebel – I took some chewing gum in to chew brazenly in class…Never built up the courage to get it out of my bag Also lost cool points in the process by asking my mum to buy it for me and letting her in on my plan to become one of the ‘cool kids’ via chewing this gum. And my husband has also picked on my twitter feed!! (rather tellingly he took issue with me engaging in tweets around sexism and racism, which riles him up).

[helplesshopeless]

It's just hit me like a ton of bricks that if we split up, my daughter will not have a sibling. That seems like such a huge loss

[ravenmum]

I don't have a 100% sibling, but I have 3 half-siblings, which makes either 1.5 full ones or just 3 siblings :)

[helplesshopeless]

@ravenmum if you don't mind sharing, are you older or younger? Do you feel close to them?

[ravenmum]

My parents divorced, both remarried and the siblings came along 9, 10 and 13 years later. I moved abroad 30 years ago, so obviously not very close for that reason! But would be otherwise I would say.

[helplesshopeless]

Thank you @ravenmum. I am catastrophising I think about the impact it might have on her if a little half-sibling came along and she felt replaced or left out! But getting way ahead of myself there

[ravenmum]

Nothing wrong with planning ahead! If it's a girl, will you call the half-sibling Meg, Katy or Buttocks?

[Mix56]

One of the biggest (and most ridiculous) revelations I've had getting older is that sometimes (often) Other People are totally wrong and in fact I was right.^
Or basically dont give a shit^

[KatySun]

I just asked my older Dd if she felt replaced or pushed out when her various half-siblings came along and she looked at me like it was an odd question and said no, of course not.
And she does acknowledge and speak openly about some of her childhood being affected by the goings on with ex, so i do think she would say what she thinks.

[KatySun]

This is because of course DD is a shining star who is irreplaceable ⭐️

[helplesshopeless]

Hah, Raven also has a nice ring to it! 

@KatySun thank you, and your daughter does sound lovely

[KatySun]

My main worry with DD was the other way around, that any child I had after her would have a hard job living up to her and feel like they came second. But my other DC is actually completely different and so actually you cannot compare them, and they don’t compare themselves to each other either. They both have their own ways of being, their own interests and a good set of friends each. So there is no first and second, they both come first in different ways. Hope that makes sense.

[Cavagirl]

Ah careful OP, as an only child myself, you'll start me on my "giving a child a sibling as a weird gift is nonsense" rant

A couple of (completely unrelated) points:
I just think come on, it’s not that hard not to leer at me!
I found the beginnings of my relationship with DP quite strange that he never did any jokey pervy leering or suchlike. Eventually I realised it's because he doesn't see boobs/a bum/legs, he sees me. It was a bit of a revelation. It's telling that your H behaves towards you as if you're an object he's admiring. His need for "affection" as we're calling it is more related to power, control and "winning" a prize than he would ever admit or even realise. I've subconsciously double crossed my legs writing this - how can sex ever be mutually satisfying or loving when one partner is quite literally viewing it as a conquest? It's such a thing between you now, could it ever be what it presumably once was, knowing that even if you wanted it, throughout he'd presumably be congratulating himself on having won?

Secondly, non jokingly, the point about the sibling. Isn't this all tied into your own view of what a successful life should look like, for you? I'm sure there will be loads of other things that come up in your mind as time goes on that you realise will be far from your ideal if you split. But that's life, and you will overcome and get through them. And you will redefine for yourself what a happy life looks like, unrelated to your marital status or the number of children you have.

[19Bears]

What's worse though, your dh leering at you, or not noticing you are an actual woman, ever? I have recently taken to brazenly flaunting myself in my running gear or a small towel or just my underwear in front of him just see if he takes any notice. Nothing. Soul destroying.