8th amendement

[playdead]

It feels like we are dragging ourselves into the 21st century. If there is a yes vote at least cases like the X case will (hopefully) not happen again.

I feel a relieved that, at last, the wishes of the women involved will be taken into account.

I'm in NI and was just wondering if there was information/ stats on the number of doctors in RoI who would be willing to perform a termination. I've found doctors can actually be very conservative and anti abortion so will there be practitioners there to meet demand?

You could still end up having to travel albeit within Ireland for a termination.

Yes there will be women who find out late, who need abortions following scans etc etc. But I think we need to push the argument for the 12 weeks first; sort the rest out later.

I agree Maryz wholeheartedly. However, does abortion on demand for the first 12 weeks remove the 8th amendment?

Maryz I am a citizen of Ireland. I have the passport to prove it and I was born and raised in Ireland and spent my university years and beyond living there. I partook in two referendums as well.

My understanding is that it's the other way around.

We will be voting to repeal the 8th, and we've been told that the legislation to follow will give us abortion on demand to 12 weeks.

But the removal opens the option of the government then relaxing that; an issue that the "pro-life" groups are making much of.

Wips, I don't think that will be a problem because the pre-12-weeks will mostly be medical abortions; similar to the MAP. I do think if later abortions are in demand, there may well be an issue and I foresee clinics outside of the main hospitals as being the way to go.

If you are in NI and you were born there or your parents were born there you can have citizenship of Ireland too under the GFA - Good Friday Agreement.

WipsGlitter

Fair enough Elendon, sorry; sometimes on MN it's hard for those of us who know the Irish history surrounding this to explain our pov.

I mean, to a lot of people from the UK it's obvious, we should allow abortion, but we all know it's not that simple.

Can you still vote? Here there are students registering in droves so I retain hope the young vote will carry it

But presumably you'll still have to see a doctor (two?) for a medical abortion.

There was some chat here about difficulty getting even the MAP from doctors. Will there be something like Brooke or Marie Stopes opening do you think?

The Irish College of GP's support repeal and up to 12 weeks and most GP's are for that as well. Terminations are very short procedures (the surgical ones). There will of course be a whole lot more of them being carried out then now. But I don't think separate clinics is the way to go. It makes it seem like it isn't a medical procedure somehow and can lead to anti abortion activists doing some very horrible things to people visiting them. It's a surgical procedure, it should happen in hospital where every other surgical procedure happens. Medical abortion is just prescribing medicine and having a follow up to check all is well.

most GP's are for that as well
Is there data to support that?

Even for a non surgical abortion you still need a doctor to prescribe - I'm sure many will but many won't as well.

But I think we need to push the argument for the 12 weeks first; sort the rest out later.

I think that it's almost the other way around. It was the women carrying FFA pregnancies who went to the ECHR and forced the government's hand on holding this referendum and it's their stories that have caused the most horror around the reality of not allowing them to be treated at home. According the the Abortion Rights Campaine, 83% of those polled were in favour of legalising abortion in the event of FFA, higher than those in favour for rape victims and much, much higher than those in favour for 'social' reasons.

We can't sell these women down the river.

www.abortionrightscampaign.ie/2016/08/07/8-myths/

I do understand that, Silently. And I recognise that those women have fought hard in almost impossible circumstances. BUT (and I'm being pragmatic here) I think it's important that we don't just look at what we feel Ireland should have; we should also take into consideration what we might be able to get the electorate to vote for, something that wasn't considered enough in earlier referendums.

While the "pro-life" (sorry I think I said pro-choice above when I meant pro-life, I tend to put pro-life in inverted commas) groups can tell the fence-sitters that everyone else is pushing for a longer time period, I think the referendum will fail. Whereas I would hope that if we could just repeal the 8th, and get abortion in the first 12 weeks, the other, later, exceptions would follow.

The "pro-life" agenda is trying to turn it into a "no abortion" OR "unlimited abortion to term" argument and if people believe that it will fail, just as the other referendums have failed and we will have nothing.

There are too many people one the fence who might just accept the sort of "take a pill" type abortion as being ok - after all we now allow the MAP - whereas the suggestion that later abortions might be allowed will cause them to dig their heels in.

rivierliedje, yes of course it should happen in the hospitals we now have; I'm just not entirely sure it will.

The alternative, to have a referendum on FFA, another on rape, another on suicide, another on mental health issues is unthinkable.

I think we need to repeal the 8th to allow for legislation. We must, surely, focus on that first. For fear that pushing for more will leave us with nothing.

It's not the "pro-life" people who will win or lose this, or the "pro-choice" people, it's the silent fence-sitting majority we need to win over.

Yes BrandNewHouse - dd was saying the other day that we really don't want to go down the road of the only way for a teenager to get an abortion is to accuse her boyfriend of rape. That won't help anyone.

Similarly with suicidal teenagers - should they be forced to stand in front of a panel and prove how suicidal they are? FFS, that would drive anyone to depression having to do that.

8th to allow for legislation. We must, surely, focus on that first. For fear that pushing for more will leave us with nothing.

While I agree that the 8th only needs to be repealed once, what I'm saying is that there is more public support for termination in FFA pregnancies, right up to term, than there is for anything else.

What you're advocating is dropping the universally popular part of the replacement legislation and keeping the part that's a considerably harder sell.

On the doorsteps, those who will talk (and that's a very limited number here up the country) are in favour of allowing the hard cases, FFA, rape, incest, but they don't believe that contraception fails and they hate the idea of 'on demand', which is why I'm so keep that those who do want repeal stop using that emotive and misleading phrase.

I get it. I finally get it.

I totally understood why women would want an abortion in cases of rape and FFA but still wasn't convinced that was a good enough reason to vote repeal. I now understand why thanks to @rivierliedje. I never really understood bodily autonomy before she explained it, or the need for widespread screening tests.

I don't think I'll ever be fully ok with unrestricted abortion but I understand that if we don't change the law we can't deliver the medical care we should be delivering. I'm struggling but know I have to vote repeal.

Thank you to evryone who stopped commenting on me and my opinions and gave me the information I needed. I'm embarassed at my ignorance , and I also agree with @Maryz that the people sitting on the fence are the key to repealing the 8th. . I will pass the information I've been given onto my husband and have no doubt he will also come down off the fence.

My dad is vehemently anti-abortion in all cases although does accept that maybe there should be some give on foetal abnormalities.
I disagree but I have more respect for this position than people who say they don't agree with abortion except in cases of rape of incest. It doesn't make any sense to me, if you think it is wrong then it should be wrong in all cases (foetal abnormalities are a little different as they baby may die and be in pain). By saying it is okay for rape or incest you are judging the woman (as usual) and how she got pregnant. So if you were raped you are deemed worthy as it wasn't your fault but if you had a one night stand and are just a slapper then you shouldn't be allowed. Also how do you prove you were raped!
I think the 12 week on demand abortion is reasonable and doesn't discriminate between women but I really fear it won't go through.

mikeyssister there's so much misinformation and allsorts being bandied about especially from the anti-choice side that it would confuse most people.

I haven't heard much from the repeal side, the anti-choice side are making themselves heard and they've upped their poster/massive adverts on lorries as they're everywhere now.

Mickey Thank you for listening.
There are statistics for doctors supporting repeal, but I'll need to go find them.

Cany anyone please provide the text of what is proposed or a link to it and to a statement (not a polemic from either side) of the effect of a Yes vote?

I'm neither female nor Irish but it would be interesting to see.

Is there any prospect of abortion becoming easier than in NI? There would be something almost bizarre about women from NI taking the train to Dublin instead of (the more stressful and expensive) plane to London or Liverpool or Manchester. I can hear some of the founders of the Republic turning in their graves and it's a noise I like.

Andrew

There are many people in Northern Ireland who have Irish passports and this is rising because to have one means no loss of travel/work restriction within the EU post Brexit.

This from the BBC, the full wording will not be released until 6th March. Basically it means that if the referendum gets a yes then the Irish Parliament, Oireachtas, can legislate.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43129019

I too find rivierliedje's posts most informative.

Cany anyone please provide the text of what is proposed or a link to it and to a statement (not a polemic from either side) of the effect of a Yes vote?

No and that's part of the problem. We have two separate things going on, the repeal of the 8th amendment and then the legislation that will be passed in its place. The wording of the legislation is still being worked on and will be published at the beginning of March.

Is there any prospect of abortion becoming easier than in NI? There would be something almost bizarre about women from NI taking the train to Dublin instead of (the more stressful and expensive) plane to London or Liverpool or Manchester.

Right now our abortion laws are more liberal that NI. While we do have a law that could result in a 14 years in prison, no one has ever been charged. It's a life sentence in NI and women are actually prosecuted.

www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/irish-woman-accused-of-using-poison-to-procure-abortion-1.2492666

However, their antenatal care isn't impacted by the 8th, the woman and the fetus don't have an equal right to life. They don't have the threat of court action hanging over them if they refuse aspects of medical treatment during pregnancy and they have more freedom in choosing how to give birth. There have been women in the Republic who've found themselves subject to court orders if they've refused to be induced or have wanted to have a VBAC after a c section. Obviously, it doesn't often get that far, the threat is usually enough.

Women in NI now have their abortion services paid for by some arm of the British government, I think it's the Scottish executive. I imagine flying over will still be cheaper than availing of the Irish health system.

Thank you Elendon.

Passports don’t come into it, do they? I cannot see the CTA (which predates 1973) being dropped. Since 1967 there has been no control to prevent an Irish woman - with the money for it - coming to England and having an abortion here, and of course the same applies to women from NI. I only meant that it would be a strange turn of history if women from NI started making the journey across the island instead!

Since 1967 there has been no control to prevent an Irish woman - with the money for it - coming to England and having an abortion here..

We did actually have a little blip on that, a 14 became pregnant as a result of rape and when her parents took her to England for a termination, the High Court demanded her return. Her situation resulted in another amendment to the constitution, enshrining the right to travel, but it cause this child massive distress.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attorney_General_v._X

*a 14 year old.