8th amendement

[playdead]

It feels like we are dragging ourselves into the 21st century. If there is a yes vote at least cases like the X case will (hopefully) not happen again.

I feel a relieved that, at last, the wishes of the women involved will be taken into account.

What polls are they, honeyrider? I've seen some with margins around 7% in favour but mostly bigger. Has one found a majority against repeal?

There have been a number of polls and their results discussed on the radio over the weekend and while something like 60 - 63 would favour repeal that changes when it comes to abortion up to 12 weeks where it falls to only 40%.

The minister Regina Doherty has even spoken out about the chance of it not passing so it looks like the government is getting worried.

If anyone wants to listen to Pat Kenny's discussion on Newstalk today on podcast - it was on after 10am news - it's the first item.

I see what you mean now - it depends how you interpret the polls when there are a lot of undecideds. Like the poll with 40% in favour of abortion up to 12 weeks had around 33% against it, so still has a margin of 7% in favour. On the other hand, who knows what the undecideds will do if they decide to vote?

Regina Doherty is either a complete eejit or is anti-abortion herself for her to make those statements publicly. Doom and gloom can influence public opinion so it's just not what you do as a govt proposing a referendum. I think they'll be careful to choose the wording that has the best chance of passing. For instance, nothing about 12 week limit is likely to go into the constitution - that would be for legislation once the 8th is repealed.

I'm past the age of child bearing but obvously still have a vote. DH and I are firmly on the fence. Our beliefs are not dictated by the Church it's when we believe life begins, and what sort of society we want to live in.

Anyway we decide to chat to our three daughters, none of whom have a vote to see what they wanted.

DD1 - doesn't generally believe in abortion, doesn't believe it's a women only issue, believes that pregnancies where there is a FFA should be allowed have an abortion if wanted, not 100% sure what should happen in cases of rape or incest, believes if the mother's life is at risk abortion should be an option. Sitting on the fence but leaning towards a Keep because she's so against an unrestricted 12 week on demand.

DD2, believes there absolutely should be abortion on demand at any time or for any reason, only a women's issue and not 100% sure she'd allow men to vote, definitely a Repeal

DD3, very, very similar in thinking to DD1 but leaning towards a Repeal.

Also asked DS, he's leaning towards a Keep for the same reasons as DD1, except he will be voting.

I was amazed at how conservative my children are in their views. Definitely not influenced by the Church as they range from atheists to agnostics and only one who would call herself a Christian.

From a very simple snapshot of our family, who range in age from 13 to 55 I don't think 8th will be repealed.

Definitely not influenced by the Church as they range from atheists to agnostics and only one who would call herself a Christian.

I think that you're dismissing the influence of the church and Catholic society far too easily. The phrase 'on-demand' is, of itself a fantastic bit of propaganda and very weighted.

It's usually used to describe inpatient consumers, TV on demand, banking on demand, when do you ever hear of any other medical procedure being described as 'on demand'? The phrase subtlety drags a load of negative contagions around consumer society into the debate. It allows the policy of providing safe, legal abortion services to women to become associated with a culture of impatience, laziness, selfishness and thoughtlessness – all the worst aspects of consumer culture.

'One trust' is a far more appropriate term. The implication there is that women can be trusted to make appropriate decisions for themselves, their health, their wellbeing and the wellbeing of their families. Ordinary Irish women are intelligent enough to makes these decisions for themselves, in the same way that they are intelligent enough to make decisions around other aspect of their health, their careers and their education.

Irish women deserve to be trusted.

I agree that the "on demand" phrase is telling that someone has been influenced by pro-lifer misinformation, whether they know it or not.

Even Britain doesn't have abortion on demand ffs! It requires the signoff of 2 doctors willing to attest that the risk of continuing the pregnancy is greater than the risk it termination wrt the woman's physical or mental health (or that of her other children). GPs sometimes refuse to sign off or refer and women are left having to travel miles away to get to a clinic. That's not "on demand" at all.

The proposed 12-week limit is likely to have similar (or more restrictive) strings attached. I think it would help the case for repeal if these conditions were spelled out, so the repeal campaign can easily counter pro-life claims about abortion on demand.

...and what sort of society we want to live in.

I think that the absolute best of Irish society is the way in which we look after our own. We're fairly tolerant towards each other and help each other out, even those who make choices we don't agree with.

Twelve of our own travel to England every day to have terminations, the 8th doesn't stop them, our constitution enshrines their right to travel. The 8th doesn't stop abortion, it stops those women going home afterwards to sit by their own firesides, to drink tea with their own mothers and to get the hugs they must so desperately need.

Countless others take the abortion pill, I understand that it's a fairly safe thing to do but it can't be totally without risk, some of those women must need medical help. The 8th must put a bit of fear into them about seeking that help. I don't think I want a society that makes them hesitate.

The anti-choice side seem to be gaining momentum. I'd be disgusted with my children if they were anti-choice, fortunately they're pro-choice.

On-demand - this was my daughter's definition not mine. I discussed with her what she meant and she said it means whenever the woman wants. And she's definitely not influenced by any pro-life information/misinformation, but she is a child who's grown up in an on-demand society.

Dismissing the influence of the church and "Roman" Catholic society too easily . I know how my daughters were raised so no I don't accept this point.

and what sort of society we want to live in - here we may have problems. I will absolutely respect a person's right to make their point of view and I will listen and consider what they say, provided they extend the same courtesy to me.

I'd be disgusted with my children if they were anti-choice - I'd be disgusted with my children if they made a decision without investigating it fully first and considering all sides of the argument. Once they've done that I will fully respect their decision whatever that decision is.

I was leaning towards a "No" vote on same sex marriage. Not because I have a problem with gay couples but because I had to change my understanding of what "marriage" was, and why it was important that for a gay couple a civil union wasn't the same thing. I am honestly open to make the same journey but haven't yet been persuaded to climb down off my fence.

Unfortunately too many people are just seeing/hearing about abortion and are not informed about what the full implications are such as proper maternity care.

The repeal side need to promote that information @honeyrider.

The repeal side need to promote that information @honeyrider.

Here you go:

aimsireland.ie/the-8th-amendment-its-effects-on-continuing-pregnancy/

Great I'll read that, but it needs to be pushed, pushed, pushed.

What people need to change their minds are facts not rhetoric.

@Silently - thank you and there's loads more links there too.

I don't think it will be repealed. I think it should be but I'd be surprised if it is. @MulhuddartDrive hit the nail on the head completely, it's a women's issue and I think a lot of people won't care enough to vote and those who feel strongly about keeping it will be out in force. The 8th amendment is not stopping Irish women from having abortions, we are just being forced to travel, pay a fortune and risk our lives for it.

I personally can't imagine ever having one but that is my choice and I fully respect the choice of women who do, whatever the reason. In the cases of FFA and where miscarriage is already occurring it shouldn't be an issue at all. I really hope it is repealed but I fear it's not going to happen.

I know a lady who was a midwife in the1960's and she says that back then if a woman came to hospital and was miscarrying they would do a D and C to avoid septicemia, effectively aborting the pregnancy as they had no ultrasound and couldn't detect a Heartbeat. Now 60 years later because they can scan and see a heartbeat they have to wait and see what happens regardless of the risk to the mother.
Technology has moved on but legislation has not.

No, facts really don't work. The forced birthers still won't accept that the 8th killed Salvita, they confidently state that sepsis killed her, as if she licked it from the stones.

@Silently but it's not the pro-life you need to convince. You have to convince people like me who can't help wondering if a 12 week limit is better or worse than the current situation.

No offence but you're not the middle ground. The middle ground is when, if you have moral objections to abortion, you choose not to have one yourself. Pondering over imposing that choice on another woman, isn't a moral neutral.

No offence but you're not the middle ground. The middle ground is when, if you have moral objections to abortion, you choose not to have one yourself. Pondering over imposing that choice on another woman, isn't a moral neutral.

100% agree with this.

@SilentlyScreamingAgain totally agree with you

Also use of the word on demand is such a deliberate use of a word to conjure up images of a line of women just queuing up to have a termination who don't give a shit about anything and sure it's probably their fifth one.

It comes back to individuals internal views on women and if we can be trusted to make our own choices independent of others.

The sad thing a lot of this internalized criticism of women can come from other women.

If you wouldn't have a termination that's fine but don't impose that on others and not give them their own choice to have one in their own country and not to feel like a criminal going abroad to have one.

I think I am middle ground and I think you're missing the point that so many other people feel the same way as me.

I have never been in a position where I had to think about whether I should have an abortion or not, neither have any of my family and friends that I'm aware of. I believe that life begins at conception so if I vote that we repeal the 8th I'm accepting the fact that other women will teminate what I believe to be a life. So I have to decide if I'm prepared to vote to accept that or not. And that's my moral dilemma. Now you may not agree with me, you may think I have no right to tell another human what they can and can't do, you may believe in the bodily autonomy of the individual and I'm totally wrong. However, whether you like it or not I'm one of the people you need to convince.

@silently posted a fantastic link which has done more to change my mind than any guilt tripping you can ever post about imposing my views on other people and making them feel like a criminal. All that does is annoy me, I'm not judging anyone for having an abortion because I'm not walking in their shoes so please don't accuse me of criticising other women.

I will tell my 14 year old not to use the phrase "on demand" anymore as it might upset the people who agree with her that women are entitled to abortions. And just to clarify this is not a phrase she has heard in this house as we are very careful not to use emotive language on such a sensitive issue.

Many people in Ireland do feel that they have a right to impose their religious or moral choices on others but that doesn't make it the 'middle ground', it just make it a commonly held view. In the same way as not allowing women to vote, drive cars or leave the house with their heads uncovered in a commonly held view in Saudi Arabia.

I believe that life begins at conception so if I vote that we repeal the 8th I'm accepting the fact that other women will teminate what I believe to be a life

Those Saudis I mentioned above think that a woman not coving her hair will go to hell. To what extent do you think that they should be able to impose that view on others? I absolutely believe in religious freedom, I would do what I could to ensure that any woman who wanted to cover her hair could do so but I wouldn't cover mind.

I accept that you believe that life begins at conception but, presumably you're not picketing chemist shops selling the morning after pill or medical centres fitting copper coils, so you already accept that not every feels the same way. You have a moral position that would preclude you from using these devices and fair play to you on that but why do you accept those items being used but not abortion?

I will tell my 14 year old not to use the phrase "on demand" anymore as it might upset the people who agree with her that women are entitled to abortions. And just to clarify this is not a phrase she has heard in this house as we are very careful not to use emotive language on such a sensitive issue.

I'm in no way upset by the phrase, I just see it as the propaganda is it. I think the phrase 'entitled to abortions' is equally emotive. Entitled means, according to the Google dictionary,: 'believing oneself to be inherently deserving of privileges or special treatment.'

Medical care isn't a special treatment and it shouldn't be a privilege in modern day Ireland.

I will not picket doctors offices who perform abortions if abortion becomes more widely available as will then be the law of our land. Just means that I will not choose that option for myself. I should not judge other people who choose that option.

However you are not talking about that. Suggesting that Saudi women covering/not covering their hair is the same as voting for or against repealing the 8th is facetious to say the least and I will comment no further on that.

I am asking in all honesty for facts that will help me make up my mind, not comments that have nothing to do with it. Telling me that women have the right to choose is not a fact it is an opinion. Giving me specific examples of how the 8th can impact on people's lives is a fact.

If I cannot be convinced on an open forum where I don't know you and can't judge you how will you convince people face to face when emotions are running high. Right now based on @Silently's link I'm definitely leaning more to vote repeal, but I'm still not convinced.

not talking about that. Suggesting that Saudi women covering/not covering their hair is the same as voting for or against repealing the 8th is facetious to say the least and I will comment no further on that.

I'm not being facetious, imposing your religious or moral views on another is never funny. It's a really common trap to fall into to think that our own morals are unquestionable because they are shared with people like ourselves while rolling our eyes at the morals of groups we feel less affinity with.

I'm out. I came here for facts and with the exception of one link I've none.

I did not post here to have my morals constantly commented on and I sure as hell don't roll my eyes at other people.

You, the repealers, had an ideal opportunity to convince one person to vote repeal and you haven't, simply because you think it's more appropriate to comment on me.

Well done.