8th amendement

[playdead]

It feels like we are dragging ourselves into the 21st century. If there is a yes vote at least cases like the X case will (hopefully) not happen again.

I feel a relieved that, at last, the wishes of the women involved will be taken into account.

If you really wanted to know what the repeal the 8th was about there are numerous places to find the info rather than post and complain on a site based outside Ireland.

Your last post smacks of clutching at any excuse to justify your anti abortion views while trying to blame others for not convincing you to change your mind, what a cop out.

You've made a number of statements about things I've said that I've challenged. Im sorry if that's made you uncomfortable.

I haven't questioned your morals, I don't think that anyone who doesn't want to have an abortion should have one, I've simply said that imposing that moral view on others is wrong.

You haven't explained why you think it's acceptable to force others to live by your belief system.

smacks of clutching at any excuse to justify your anti abortion views while trying to blame others for not convincing you to change your mind, what a cop out.

This happened an awful lot during the same sex marriage debate. Twitter, FB and Boards IE were full of people making (often outrageous) statements and then claiming if only the pro SSMers had come up with the right argument/were less shrill/less gay etc, the annomous poster would have changed their minds.

I suspect that it's a tactic of conservative groups to shut down discussion.

I haven't questioned the above posters moral outlook, I've given her the information she asked for, pointed out her use of language is emotive and asked why she's comfortable imposing her views on others. Her reaction isn't consistent with what's actually been said to her.

I HAVE NEVER SAID I'M ANTI-ABORTION. I query whether we should have abortion available up to 12 weeks. You may have inferred from my post that I an anti-abortion but I have not said I'm against abortion in all cases and I've also stated I am willingly to change my mind.

You implied I rolled my eyes at people who didn't agree with my morals. That to me is a criticism.

You have constantly accused me of using emotive language despite the fact I have explained on numerous occasions that "on demand" is DD2's (who is PRO-ABORTION) phrase, and that I questioned her use of it.

The fact that this discussion site is based outside Ireland is irrelevant. This area of the site is Craicnet - for the Irish.

I did not complain until I felt and still do feel that I have to justify my position. I have not asked a single person here to justify their position I have asked for facts to help me decide which way to vote.

The facts can be pro choice or anti choice. I stupidly thought that a discussion about the 8th amendment might have people from the pro choice side with facts not comments about mine/their feelings and morals. I don't believe in all honesty that there are a lot of facts from the anti choice side that will help make up my mind, because I don't think many anti choicer's post in public anymore, unless they're from a well-funded organisation. I expected a lot of feelings and morals from the anti -choice side which really wouldn't have been very helpful at all.

I have never asked anyone to change my mind. You cannot and will not change my mind. I still haven't made up my mind but as I have stated already I felt @slightly's link really helped.

smacks of clutching at any excuse to justify your anti abortion views while trying to blame others for not convincing you to change your mind

Just to re-iterate I have never asked you to change my mind because I have not made up my mind.

full of people making (often outrageous) statements and then claiming if only the pro SSMers had come up with the right argument/were less shrill/less gay etc, the annomous poster would have changed their minds

I don't think I've made any outrageous statements about abortion and I already said I voted yes to same sex marriage. And yes, I had to have facts presented to me so I could change my mind but I did change my mind. Should I have needed the facts, probably not but I did.

Am I a conservative - yes, as I get older more so than ever before. Should I educate myself on issues of national importance, I try to, but I sometimes take an easy way and ask other people to point me in the right direction - but I'm human so shoot me.

asked why she's comfortable imposing her views on others

We all do this in every single election. I'm sure people who vote People Before Profit or Sinn Fein feel that there views are being imposed on by those or vote Fianna Fail or Fine Gael. How is voting one way or another in any referendum any different?

Sorry, for someone who flounced off I just made a lot of posts

Mickey I don't think it has been decided yet what legislation would be brought in if Repeal wins. If the eighth goes, then the government can legislate for abortion, it doesn't have to however, because the current law is a 14 year prison sentence for abortion. So even if the eighth is repealed nothing need change immediately. It is just a step towards legalising and legislating for abortion.

You asked for facts. I am a GP. Currently we have imperfect data on how many Irish women have an abortion. The numbers we do have are those who give an Irish address in the UK (doesn't include those who give a different address or those who go to another country) and those who give an Irish address when ordering abortion pills online (again an underestimate as people can give other addresses, order them abroad or get them from other places). If you add these up you get an underestimate of the number of Irish women having an abortion. These numbers are similar to other European countries.
Here is the WHO data: WHO

Making abortion legal has proved over and over again to not increase the rate of abortion. Things that definitely decrease the rate of abortion are: education about, access to and use of contraception AND societal structures in place that make it easier to raise a child (good quality affordable childcare, supportive employment, supportive family and friends etc).

Because of the need to make arrangements to travel Irish women have abortions later on average than those in countries where abortion is available. This makes it both a slightly more complicated procedure (more likely to be surgical) and more ethically difficult.

Currently the eight amendment has effects on all maternity care. Tests that are standard in other countries are not done much (testing for trisomies etc). It effects women's right to informed consent during pregnancy because what is an obvious fact in other countries (mother's life comes first) is not in Ireland (both lives are of equal value). That means doctors have to wait longer to act just on the off chance that the foetus might still live. This is not medical best practice because it a game of chicken between the doctors and infection taking hold. In other countries doctors can treat straight away and prevent any further complications. While in Ireland you have to wait as long as possible just in case you are convicted of murder (the trouble is waiting as long as possible is not clear cut and medically dangerous).
At the other end. if a doctor decides a ceasarean is in the best interest of the foetus, the woman can be forced to have one: www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/17/ireland-woman-forced-birth-denied-abortion (there are other such stories, plenty of women who had a wanted pregnancy).

Here is a good link with a lot of information: parentsforchoice.ie/the-8th-amendment-and-maternity-care/.

In short:
If the eighth is repealed and abortion is legislated for until 12 weeks then the likelihood is that the abortion rate will seem to go up slightly because we will have accurate numbers. Irish women will have abortions earlier than they can now and they will be safer on the whole.
Maternity care will be able to follow medical best practice.

I don't think it has been decided yet what legislation would be brought in if Repeal wins I think I have to base my decision on the likelihood of 12 weeks.

How does the 8th impact on the offer of tests?

@rivierliedje, thank you for the information and links.

I still believe that abortion is wrong for me, but I'm beginning to see the logic of repeal.

@Mickey
I am not trying to make you think that abortion should be right for you. That is up to everyone to decide for themselves in my opinion.

It impacts of the offer of tests for two reasons: the first is an attitude of 'why offer expensive tests when we can't do anything with the information' and the second is that some of the test carry a small risk of miscarriage and as the foetus has equal right to life, this is interpreted as a 'risk of death' to one of the patients and therefore is weighted a lot more heavily in decision making than it would be in other countries (not that is isn't weighted heavily there, women who have tests generally have a wanted pregnancy).
(the newest tests are just blood tests and carry no risk of miscarriage now).

Abortion happens all over the world and it's of all times. Currently Irish women have to travel for it (explicitly allowed) which makes it later and more traumatic, but doesn't stop abortions happening. Having legislation in place for 12 weeks means women can be treated at home. It is my opinion that this is the compassionate thing to do. It is also the medically safer thing to do.
Repealing the 8th will let obstetricians make their decisions in line with best clinical practice.
Reducing abortion (having no abortions would be ideal, but the world is not ideal) involves lots of education, access to contraception and societal support which are all things that can be campaigned for and legislated for, but which won't be immediately linked to repealing the 8th. Making/keeping abortion illegal has never reduced the rate of abortion.

I never wanted anyone to convinvce me that abortion was right for me. I've been very lucky in my life, I had my healthy children when I could afford them and when I was in a long term relationship, and I really appreciate the fact I've never had to make a difficult decision. I know that other women aren't so lucky but I was still struggling because for me it means the death of a baby (I know that's emotive but it's how it feels to me).

Would the tests be recommended in many pregnancies if the 8th wasn't a barrier?

Mikey I trained in Belgium (another small, Catholic, European country that was until 1991 the only other western european country where abortion was illegal, it is now legal up to 12 weeks). Those tests are standard in every single pregnancy.

I am happy we agree that it is lucky for us that we have never been faced with such a difficult decision. In my opinion this is why abortion should be legal. I have been lucky, many women are not. Sometimes the best thing in the situation is an abortion. I want that abortion to be safe and straightforward (as a doctor and because I think it is the compassionate thing).
For me another thing that is important is women's bodily autonomy. If I don't give my consent for an operation, that operation is assault. There are exceptions for children (where parents have to give consent) or in emergencies when a patient is not able to give consent. Except currently in Ireland for a cesarean, doctors can get a court order to make a woman have a cesarean (the court does have to agree though, doctor's can not just decide).
I respect your right to believe that life begins at conception. I am much less clear on this for myself. I do believe however that it is unethical to force someone to save someone else's life if it impinges on their bodily autonomy. We don't force a family member who is a match to donate a kidney even though this is generally a one off, safe operation and is life saving for the person who needs a kidney (people die on the organ donation waiting list every year). And in my opinion we cannot force women to continue a pregnancy because the foetus will die if they don't. To me these are similar situations because both involve someone having donating something 'bodily' to save another.
But that second half is my opinion. I accept that people have different views on this.

So what difference would it make if these tests are offered? What could they pick up that isn't currently being picked up?

Could we end in a situation where women abort say because the foetus tests positive for Downs or is that scaremongering? I'm not judging just trying to get facts.

Can I ask a question?

At what stage in pregnancy are these new "tests" done - because my understanding is that they aren't done in the first 12 weeks anyway, so will have no bearing on this particular referendum.

Post-test, post-12 week abortions, those done for medical reasons, will have to be covered under different legislation (in fact, we are led to believe that they are covered under current legislation along with the "rape" and "foetal abnormality" legislation.

I would appeal to anyone who is on the fence about the 12 week thing to think very carefully before rejecting it.

Whether or not you believe in abortion, whether or not you believe in a foetus being a "baby" from the point of conception, things have changed and now women are accessing drugs on the internet to terminate their pregnancies. If this legislation is rejected, they will continue to do so, unsupervised by medical staff, and eventually there will be a tragedy where someone will die from illegal drugs/wrong dose/not being supervised etc. This is a tragedy just waiting to happen.

At the moment in Ireland rich women, older women, educated women (generally) have access to abortion - they can hop on a plane. The ones who don't are the young, poor, uneducated, unsupported. The temptation for them to order untested cheap drugs off the internet is understandable and may be lethal.

Voting against this is a vote of non-support for those who need it most, the vulnerable among us.

When I was younger I would have vowed that I would never have an abortion. I have been lucky enough not to have to make that choice. However, what right have I to project my wants/needs/beliefs on someone else?

Can we just remember that the 8th amendment is part and parcel of policing women who dare to have a sex life with a man and enjoy it.

It's appalling in this day and age that Ireland has left this so long.

GRA - tick
Gay Marriage - tick
Abortion rights - feck off you're all killing little babies and children you whores and slags

Never mind that women were sent to laundries to give birth and have those children taken away from them and sold - trafficking in Ireland!

At what stage in pregnancy are these new "tests" done - because my understanding is that they aren't done in the first 12 weeks anyway, so will have no bearing on this particular referendum.

The 8th isn't just about abortion, it also impacts on antenatal care. According to the figures from AIMSIreland, 23,000 women went without anomaly scan last year. While the 8th doesn't forbid those scans, many hospitals don't bother to carry them out as there is no legal remedy if they show up a problems. That lack of choice is further exacerbate by how many of our hospitals are owned or in some way managed by the Church.

Irish women aren't told that they're not getting these 'best practice' scans, they'd kick up an awful fuss about that, they are just not told about them. This doesn't just impact those who'd choose to terminate those pregnancies, it also means that those wishing to carry on don't get the notice and support they should.

Here's the AIMSIreland link:

aimsireland.ie/the-8th-amendment-its-effects-on-continuing-pregnancy/

(in fact, we are led to believe that they are covered under current legislation along with the "rape" and "foetal abnormality" legislation

Sorry if I'm misunderstanding what you're saying here but there is nothing in the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act that allows for abortion if the pregnancy is a result of rape or if there is a fatal foetal abnormality.

It's really clear that the only exemption is if an abortion will save a woman's life, here's the wording.

"In a case of a real and substantial risk to a woman’s life arising from a physical health condition, the assessment process will require that an obstetrician/gynaecologist and a second relevant specialist must jointly agree and certify that the termination of pregnancy is the only treatment that will save the mother’s life. In addition, where feasible and with her consent, the woman’s GP will be consulted."

Maryz Those tests are done after 12 weeks so if that were the legislation put in place it would still not be possible to have an abortion for Down syndrome. If legislation is put in place for fatal foetal abnormality then the other trisomies typically detected on the tests (13 and 18) might fall under that criteria, because they are generally fatal (usually in utero, but rarely in the first few hours after birth). Down syndrome is not generally considered a fatal foetal abnormality.

The reason it is useful for the test to be done is that doctors (and parents!) can be prepared, they can spend extra time doing the anomaly scan to look for particular problems (some of which need to be treated as quickly as possible after birth). The fact that lots of women don't get an anomaly scan is downright bad medicine. There are lots of things that need to be monitored or treated quickly after birth (or sometimes in utero) that can be detected on that scan.

Oh and for what it's worth I think the abortion law in the UK falls short of giving women the agency over their own bodies. I had to have an abortion in the UK because I did not want to suffer a third miscarriage. I was told by my GP to let nature take its course. He was unapologetic. I was 9 weeks pregnant and going through the symptoms at that time of my previous two miscarriages. I already had two children by then.

It's not all plain sailing in the UK.

Sorry, I know I'm confusing things.

I'm not actually talking about existing legislation, I'm talking about the fact that we in Ireland are sort of being told in a head-pat type of way "there is no need for abortion on demand up to 12 weeks, let's put some luffly fluffy legislation in place to let the odd person have an abortion - you know, those people who have been raped, or whose babies aren't going to survive, or the suicidal ones (as long as they stand up in front of a panel), we'll be nice to them" - the rest of you can go to fuck.

I think it's really, really important that this passes - on demand to 12 weeks will solve the issue for the majority.

Yes there will be women who find out late, who need abortions following scans etc etc. But I think we need to push the argument for the 12 weeks first; sort the rest out later.

If we try to argue the lot we are going to lose the silent majority, those on the fence, the ones who could possibly be persuaded to vote for repeal plus 12 weeks, but who will be vociferously against "abortion on demand to term" which is what the "pro-life" parties are trying to tell them we will get in the end.

I don't think I'm explaining this very well

Remember when the divorce referendum was like Turkey's voting for Christmas'?

Elendon, I do understand this is about policing women.

What many of you outside of Ireland don't understand is that traditionally in Ireland it has actually been women policing women. It was the girls' mothers who put them in the Magdalene laundries, it was the nuns who treated them appallingly. It's women who will decide this in the end - the cohort of women over the age of about, say, 60, who will have voted consistently against abortion in every referendum.

There are many more women than men of that age. We have to convince them, and so far we have failed.

I don't mean to criticise people who aren't Irish, but unless you live here you cannot understand that it's not the politicians who are going to cause this to fail; it's the people.