to think NHS Staff have got amazing terms and conditions?

[backoffice]

I've left the NHS to go back to the private sector after 15 years. I've been reflecting a lot on my time in the NHS and something in particular that has struck me time and again are the great terms and conditions that really get people stuck in the service, so they can't leave.

In my organisation over 1/3 of staff were Band 7 or above (40-45k). Many had been in the service for many years. Statistically almost half of NHS staff are earning over 31k (band 6 or above).

The pension accrual at this level is the equivalent of an additional £15-20k contributions on top of the salary if you were buying on the open market (I'm assuming around 1k p.a. for a Band 7 into the defined benefits scheme). So that's around 1/2 NHS staff with a package of around 50k.

These benefits are really significant - especially outside of London or other cities. And staff who perform very poorly cannot really be removed from the service - the unions are very strong and the processes are huge. I managed out one person but it ended up with a criminal case - i.e. the person committed a crime and I was still struggling to get rid of them.

I needed to leave the NHS for my mental health - the whole service is so traumatised - but the financial benefits of working there far, far outweigh anything in the private sector. Most staff are, I think, basically trapped. AIBU?

Admin staff have it good. PAs are paid the same as a staff nurse. There are a great many admin pen pushers, supervisors and managers on band 6/7/8 pay.

Non medical clinical staff have a terrible deal, especially nurses the vast majority of whom are stuck on band 5 pay. Soon after the first job the pay performs terribly alongside other graduate professions. The NHS is a monopoly employer so for the majority you accept the pay or leave the profession. Yes there is paid sick leave but no one wants to go off sick alongside terrible staffing and a bullying culture. The pension has been eroded and the government are only just responding to the unlawful changes they implemented. Staffing is awful, if the t&c were that great why are we desperate for staff?

DH (graduate, private sector, non medical, far fewer quals) is now on 4 x my pay and when we graduated we earned the same, perhaps I out earned him. He would agree his job is far easier than mine with a lot fewer hours and less responsibility.

The average salary for an NHS employee is around £27k with a pension contribution rate of around 20% which is £5400. so total package is averaging around £32k in total. not sure where you get 15-20k figure from (it's 15-20%). This is average so inner london is a little higher and outside of London is lower.

The average UK Salary is £25k so it's not too far off the average esp when you consider most people working in the NHS are highly qualified.

So yes you are being unreasonable.

My ward has 2 band 7, 4 band 6 and the rest of us are 5,4 and 2! Not on anywhere near to 40k a year. So many staff are really struggling. Pension is ok, doesn’t affect most of us just now. We all work really hard so would hope not to be removed but not sure what these other benefits are?..certainly not getting treatment any quicker to get you back to work that’s for sure!! I suppose people can sit at band 7 and think they e got it good but the majority of nurses I know will never earn that on the wards unless you are a senior charge nurse. Not everyone wants that.

I disagree with your point on not being able to get rid of useless staff due to strong unions. Generally they don’t get rid of useless staff as no one can pull their finger out and follow the correct procedure in a timely manner. I seen people be suspended for investigation on full pay and 6 months later absolutely nothing has been done, meaning any dismissal would then be unfair. You could say that they are also incompetent.

YABU you’re forgetting about the hours of unpaid overtime, early finishes, late starts and risks of the job e.g. when a patient broke my nose. Any overtime that is paid for will be basic rate taxed and not at the standard rate. The level of pension contributors staff put in is between 5% and 14.5% which puts a fair dent into people’s net pay. Plus clinical staff at band 5 or 6 you mention will be qualified in their discipline and most likely have a under graduate or post graduate degree.

Yes, my BIL has just retired on a full pension on health grounds at 56. Now, he does have a very scary health condition but he's regularly cycling 50 miles in a day and running half marathons and yet he was assessed to be unfit for any kind of work.

Lovely of course and I'm pleased for him and my DSis and their family, they could do with some decent luck, but really very much better than he would have got anywhere else.

When DH's (eventually terminal) illness was diagnosed, his pension pot was worth what it was worth. No enhancement for ill health.

FWIW, BIL worked in IT and was very 9 to 5 but still benefited from NHS sickpay (for 2 years before he retired). It's not true to say the terms are payback for long hours etc. Not everyone in the NHS works like that by a long shot. DH worked far longer hours in the private sector without any of the benefits.

Don't be daft.

The benefits are fair. What has changed is that they are no longer offered in the private sector.

@SpiderinaWingMirror

The benefits are fair. What has changed is that they are no longer offered in the private sector.

Totally agree, it's not a race to the bottom, well it is but it shouldn't be

Yes and no. DH is long term NHS, I'm long term private sector.

Good terms and conditions vs the private sector (job security, pension contributions, unionisation, paid/incentivised overtime etc) but lower band level pay is poor resulting in big job vacancies in both clinical and admin staff.

The average salary for an NHS employee is around £27k with a pension contribution rate of around 20% which is £5400. so total package is averaging around £32k in total.

This isn't correct. Yes, the average pay is 27k+ - outside of London that is very reasonable. Average pay in my town is just over 20k.

The pension contribution is also irrelevant. You add 1/54 to your NHS pension for each year of contribution. For a salary of 27k that is around £500 a year - on the open market, you'd need around 15k to buy that annuity. So the package is still ON AVERAGE worth 42k for the average NHS staff member.

That is HUGE.

There are a great many admin pen pushers, supervisors and managers on band 6/7/8 pay.

But a 'great many' (if not the majority) or those are clinical staff - so nurses etc. Clinical leadership is the model now - so they are really roles that nurses etc. have moved into, in the main.

I don't mean this as a NHS bashing thread at all - just that I think a lot of people are really stuck: the service is currently horrible to work in, but the pay cut needed to leave is really stopping people from leaving.

(Although I would recommend it!!)

Good. They deserve it.

I think a lot of people are really stuck: the service is currently horrible to work in, but the pay cut needed to leave is really stopping people from leaving.

Or... It can be a horrible stressful place to work. So the NHS offers salaries which compensate for that in order to retain staff???

You are not exactly describing a problem here

I’m public sector although not NHS, and I think there are a lot in the public sector in general don’t know they’re born, when compared with the private sector(massive generalisation obviously!)

I don't see it as a trap that the terms are good, it's just a fact.
I'm a band 8, and could probably earn 10k more in the local private hospital, but my package would be worth less. The private job may well appeal to someone younger and carefree who wants more money in their pocket each month. As I'm a boring middle aged woman with dc I'm more concerned about pension, sick pay, job security etc.
Horses for courses

Don't forget the incredibly generous sickness pay that is exquisitely rare in private sector.

I mean, which patient doesn't love their NHS healthcare professional going all Marie Antoinette on them and telling them to "just take sick leave" to attend appointments or to take longer off work with the good ol' "your health is more important than a job". Yeh, mate, but unlike you for me that means not being able to pay the bills and potentially becoming homeless, which has pretty poor health outcomes.

The package is far far better than anything the vast majority of private sector workers will ever come close to seeing.

Any NHS worker claiming otherwise needs a swift reality check.

Ivory towers.

Thing with the pension arguemebt is many in the private sector put in the same percentages but in private sector they are typically paying into defined contribution pensions whereas most NHS (and many public sector in general) are paying into defined benefit pensions. So while paying the same percentage on is much better than the other - defined benefit is far superior in almost all circumstances.

I don't think the NHS packages are always bad. Some could do with tweaking but many of the issues are nothing to do with the package.

Someone mentioned a bullying culture and of course that is wrong. But many private sector companies have a bullying culture and no amount of money fixes that. Raising my salary by £5k a year doesn't make it okay to be bullied.

@HowToMurderYourLife

I disagree with your point on not being able to get rid of useless staff due to strong unions. Generally they don’t get rid of useless staff as no one can pull their finger out and follow the correct procedure in a timely manner. I seen people be suspended for investigation on full pay and 6 months later absolutely nothing has been done, meaning any dismissal would then be unfair. You could say that they are also incompetent.

Absolutely. My manager pointed out, very accurately, that it's easier to get rid of a verruca than a member of staff. I was asked to retrain someone who was quite honestly useless. She's still there, 12 years later doing half a job.

@backoffice

I don't mean this as a NHS bashing thread at all - just that I think a lot of people are really stuck: the service is currently horrible to work in, but the pay cut needed to leave is really stopping people from leaving.

(Although I would recommend it!!)

I disagree with the notion that we should feel pity for people "trapped" by their fantastic employment terms.

That's actually quite offensive.

@Onandoff

Admin staff have it good. PAs are paid the same as a staff nurse. There are a great many admin pen pushers, supervisors and managers on band 6/7/8 pay.

Non medical clinical staff have a terrible deal, especially nurses the vast majority of whom are stuck on band 5 pay. Soon after the first job the pay performs terribly alongside other graduate professions. The NHS is a monopoly employer so for the majority you accept the pay or leave the profession. Yes there is paid sick leave but no one wants to go off sick alongside terrible staffing and a bullying culture. The pension has been eroded and the government are only just responding to the unlawful changes they implemented. Staffing is awful, if the t&c were that great why are we desperate for staff?

DH (graduate, private sector, non medical, far fewer quals) is now on 4 x my pay and when we graduated we earned the same, perhaps I out earned him. He would agree his job is far easier than mine with a lot fewer hours and less responsibility.

please excuse my ignorance, Non medical clinical staff have a terrible deal, especially nurses how are nurses non medical?

Ex NHS and private here, now retired. I know what you mean.

You are right to put your mental health first at the moment though.

This is such a weird way to look at it. These kids of benefits are to incentivise people to work for the NHS because it is such a tough job. It's a reward not a 'trap'. If you leave yes you take a pay cut but you'll also be leaving for an easier job that is less demanding and takes less of a toll on your mental health, that's the trade off. Imagine rewarding people for doing a difficult job and then calling that reward a trap...?