to think NHS Staff have got amazing terms and conditions?

[backoffice]

I've left the NHS to go back to the private sector after 15 years. I've been reflecting a lot on my time in the NHS and something in particular that has struck me time and again are the great terms and conditions that really get people stuck in the service, so they can't leave.

In my organisation over 1/3 of staff were Band 7 or above (40-45k). Many had been in the service for many years. Statistically almost half of NHS staff are earning over 31k (band 6 or above).

The pension accrual at this level is the equivalent of an additional £15-20k contributions on top of the salary if you were buying on the open market (I'm assuming around 1k p.a. for a Band 7 into the defined benefits scheme). So that's around 1/2 NHS staff with a package of around 50k.

These benefits are really significant - especially outside of London or other cities. And staff who perform very poorly cannot really be removed from the service - the unions are very strong and the processes are huge. I managed out one person but it ended up with a criminal case - i.e. the person committed a crime and I was still struggling to get rid of them.

I needed to leave the NHS for my mental health - the whole service is so traumatised - but the financial benefits of working there far, far outweigh anything in the private sector. Most staff are, I think, basically trapped. AIBU?

I am a bit amazed at the "unions too strong to get rid of people" My jobshare partner and I working clinically in (and managed) a community mixed profession community team. When the team was made we had a rump of "unsackables" who turned out to be eminently sackable. When the trust was merged and I was at the level where jobs were reorganised, I was asked to take on a "problem" area to do it again, I thought about it but took early retirement instead.

@Halfaham

Ex NHS here. It is well paid and the holidays are generous. I couldn't believe back office staff got 7 week's holiday at starting point, even though they don't work bank holidays. But imho you get treated badly. I have opted to earn a lot less somewhere else.

NHS staff don't get 7 weeks holiday unless you're including bank holidays. And if you're measuring on that basis, even the worst private sector T&Cs would give you nearly 6 weeks holiday a year.

The statutory minimum (for all f/t staff) is 20 days + 8 bank holidays
Many private sector organisations offer 25 days + 8 bank holidays (my last private sector job was in 2020 and that's what I got, plus the ability to buy/sell holidays)

NHS new starters get 27 days + 8 bank holidays
After 5 years, this increases to 29 days + 8 bank holidays
After another 5 years (10 yrs total) it maxes out at 33 days + 8 bank holidays

So a new starter in the NHS gets precisely 7 days more than the statutory minimum, and 2 days more than a lot of private sector employers. It's good, yes, but lets not overstate things.

@salviapages

This is such a weird way to look at it. These kids of benefits are to incentivise people to work for the NHS because it is such a tough job. It's a reward not a 'trap'. If you leave yes you take a pay cut but you'll also be leaving for an easier job that is less demanding and takes less of a toll on your mental health, that's the trade off. Imagine rewarding people for doing a difficult job and then calling that reward a trap...?

This sums up my view.

Recompense is not a trap IMO.

For some reason, I'm reminded about posts after the NHS 'pay rise', COVID masks and vaccines and during Brexit. Can't imagine why.

@Billben it is just that IMO. I was given so many staff to “capability manage” and every time it meant grievances, tribunals - months or even years or shit each time. With maybe a 50% success rate. I couldn’t take any more.

The NHS plays down the benefits and the general messages are of poor pay and conditions. I have two adult children in the service and I’ve recommended it to them myself because it’s basically a job for life.

"In my organisation over 1/3 of staff were Band 7 or above (40-45k). Many had been in the service for many years. Statistically almost half of NHS staff are earning over 31k (band 6 or above)."

If you work for the NHS, then surely you know that this is far from the norm. Go into any ward, it will usually have one band 7, one or two band 6's and the rest will be band 5's and 2's. This is reflected in wards up and down the country.

Its better than a lot of the public sector too - certainly better than local government. We got ' restructured' to the bare bones, whilst the NHS staff we were meant to be part of the same 'board' with and working in partnership to the same strategy remained untouched. Vastly superior maternity leave deal in the NHS too - great pensions, untouchable job security. I'd love to work in the NHS!

Tbf I would like to go back - but I want a few years elsewhere first, and wouldn’t take on capability management/change management on a large scale again.

@watchwithinterest

Its better than a lot of the public sector too - certainly better than local government. We got ' restructured' to the bare bones, whilst the NHS staff we were meant to be part of the same 'board' with and working in partnership to the same strategy remained untouched. Vastly superior maternity leave deal in the NHS too - great pensions, untouchable job security. I'd love to work in the NHS!

There are plenty of jobs going!

Honestly, I wouldn’t recommend it though and I will be steering my kids firmly away from any healthcare profession.

Working in the NHS is shitter than shit at the moment and no amount of “benefit” or Blue Light Card discount will make up for the sheer terror of being so overloaded with work that at some point one of the balls dropped will result in patient harm.

I can’t see myself lasting another year like this.

@backoffice Statistically almost half of NHS staff are earning over 31k (band 6 or above).

Can I see your source for this please? I' d be amazed if this is true.

@ashmts I was surprised too but I googled it. There are quite a few spreadsheet breakdowns and FOIs online. On phone atm but if you can’t find it I can look later.

According to this: digital.nhs.uk/data-and-information/publications/statistical/nhs-staff-earnings-estimates/march-2021

Average pay across the NHS is actually now nearly 34k. (44k in CCGs!!)

@Peachee

The integrity in the NHS is second to none and that’s what needs protecting.. too many loop holes and people doing jobs for the wrong reasons (ie greed) in the private sector. That’s what’s so worrying about it being privatised..

This simply is not true. There have been appalling scandals in the NHS and utterly disgusting, inhuman official responses by the NHS to these.

Did you read the evidence gathered in the Staffordshire Hospital scandal? Or hear the doctor who whistle blew on the scandal of babies dying in heart operations due to an incompetent surgeon - he had to move abroad to find work as he became unemployable in the - his actions literally saved the lives of the babies and small children and that made him unemployable. No organisation with an ounce of integrity would treat such a person like that. Did you hear the official response of the hospital were a man with mental health problems died of dehydration in hospital and his distress at being terribly thirsty was seen as challenging behaviour instead of giving him a drink. Instead of falling over themselves with apology and committing to learn lessons, they simply asserted what a great hospital they are and how most people get really good care.

I have had terrible treatment at the hands of the NHS with a chronic condition and, when I was told my baby was non-viable and a termination was being arranged for ( turns out they had failed to record my dates correctly that's all), and I can tell you that the NHS is an organisation obsessed with never admitting fault regardless of the distress this causes to already distressed people, and regardless how this leads to them failing to learn and improve.

We have to stop this ridiculous lionisation of the NHS so that we can actually take a hard look at its faults and work to improve them.

I worked in social care for years. I saw brilliant services in the private sector, terrible ones in the third and charitable sector and vice versa.
It really taught me that it is not the ownership, public, private or third sector which leads to an organisation being a good or bad provider.

So well paid and such good conditions that they can't get staff?

I agree with you op, but would also put local government employees in the same bracket as nhs employees. The terms and conditions are so much better than in the private sector and in many cases the wages are much better too. I was a nurse and worked very hard for okay wages, but the incentive to stay in the nhs was the great maternity, special leave and sickness benefits (not that I ever needed the sickness part).

The job security is another bonus as well, though not for those of us that had to work with sub standard colleagues! I had an alcoholic manager who, when reported as under the influence of alcohol at work, was moved into another non patient position and kept on the same wage band (despite her new colleagues being 2 grades below). Don’t think that would have happened in the private sector!

@backoffice

Tbf I would like to go back - but I want a few years elsewhere first, and wouldn’t take on capability management/change management on a large scale again.

I quite enjoyed it (capability management/change management) would have stayed on had I been younger and not had family responsibilities (not children, oldies)

@backoffice

According to this: digital.nhs.uk/data-and-information/publications/statistical/nhs-staff-earnings-estimates/march-2021

Average pay across the NHS is actually now nearly 34k. (44k in CCGs!!)

I'm not sure why the shock about average pay in CCGs. CCGs don't have many low-paid staff because of the nature of the organisation and what they do. They don't need porters or HCAs.

Similarly, NHS England will have a vastly different staffing profile to a hospital trust.

Hospital Trusts have a huge workforce of band 5 nurses and HCAs - the average pay is therefore lower than the bits of the NHS which deal with law/contracting etc.

@user1497207191 I agree money isn’t the whole answer to that problem, however you can’t claim someone is paid generously when the conditions they work in are sufficiently intolerable that people leave and work elsewhere and there are huge staff shortages despite the level of the compensation on offer.

The being 'trapped' due to ts and cs can happen in any organisation and is more of a personal state of mind. In my own career I have been in that situation twice and each time have made the decision to take short term pain for longer term gain i.e less salary and benefits as I know the move will help me in the long term regain salary/pension and career satisfaction... it's a hard but personal choice and depends where the balance lands in each person's life.

On the topic of the NHS particularly, I cannot comment as have never worked for them... but I am currently undergoing treatment for cancer and the care, support, and personal engagement I have received during this journey has been remarkable and everyone who I have been in contact with from admin support to specialist nurses to oncology specialists has been worth their weight in gold... (and I imagine their ts and cs).

I agree re: the conditions being terrible btw. My pay is decent for the work I do, but the conditions (chronic under-resourcing) are dire and making me ill.

@NoIDontWatchLoveIsland

Kakser There are lots of responsibility points with extra pay attached in primary schools (lots of teachers in my family) so that's not true. Training up new staff is part of the job in many many occupations

Well in many primary schools it really is true, especially small ones. That was just one example of an extra responsibility. There is simply not the budget so no TLRs available. The biggest TLR in a primary school is generally £2.5k if you're lucky. In a rural school, this is what you'd get for the huge responsibility of being in charge of the school several days a week when the head is not there (in the case of a head with multiple schools). Anyway, off topic but just pointing out pay and conditions isn't always exactly as it seems!

[quote backoffice]@ashmts I was surprised too but I googled it. There are quite a few spreadsheet breakdowns and FOIs online. On phone atm but if you can’t find it I can look later.[/quote]
I found this FOI request www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/numbers_of_nhs_staff_on_nhs_pay

And it suggests that there are almost twice as many staff on bands 1-5 as on 6+. Average pay might be 34k but that'll be mean. A few high earners will be bumping up the average for all the porters etc. It just doesn't make sense anyway, so much of the NHS workforce are nurses and they're mainly band 5.

I don’t dispute this. Sorry you’ve had an awful time..
I think there are people that do a lot of good though and I just hope the good outweighs the bad..

@watchwithinterest the post above was supposed to be tagged for you sorry..

Qualified nurses aren't in that short a supply, but many are burnt out, have family commitments that require part time working or have injured themselves on the job and can't go back to what they were doing.

Student nurse drop out rates are appalling and it's not hard to see why - studying for a hard university degree, working on the wards and trying to keep body and soul together is one very hard slog.

There are no nurses' halls of residence, so rent or mortgages have to be factored in, the work, both academic and physical is gruelling and in spite of the NHS making it financially easier with bursaries, it's a massive shock to a student's system.