to think NHS Staff have got amazing terms and conditions?

[backoffice]

I've left the NHS to go back to the private sector after 15 years. I've been reflecting a lot on my time in the NHS and something in particular that has struck me time and again are the great terms and conditions that really get people stuck in the service, so they can't leave.

In my organisation over 1/3 of staff were Band 7 or above (40-45k). Many had been in the service for many years. Statistically almost half of NHS staff are earning over 31k (band 6 or above).

The pension accrual at this level is the equivalent of an additional £15-20k contributions on top of the salary if you were buying on the open market (I'm assuming around 1k p.a. for a Band 7 into the defined benefits scheme). So that's around 1/2 NHS staff with a package of around 50k.

These benefits are really significant - especially outside of London or other cities. And staff who perform very poorly cannot really be removed from the service - the unions are very strong and the processes are huge. I managed out one person but it ended up with a criminal case - i.e. the person committed a crime and I was still struggling to get rid of them.

I needed to leave the NHS for my mental health - the whole service is so traumatised - but the financial benefits of working there far, far outweigh anything in the private sector. Most staff are, I think, basically trapped. AIBU?

This is the same as " teachers should stop moaning coz of all the holidays!" Right?

As someone who has worked in NHS...I don't know many on band 7...most are paid by band 5 or 6

Yes indeed @malificent7 it is. But whenever the appropriate response of "if it's so great, why don't you do it" is suggested, there's never any response. Which entirely proves the point. A great many public sector jobs can't recruit and retain precisely because the pay and T&C aren't, compared to what can be found elsewhere, really that great.

@sst1234

This is the problem with the public sector full stop. Poor performance, attendance is not managed well. And the expectation of endless investment is unreasonable. It is a structural problem rather than anything that individuals can be blamed for. People working in public sector take offense to this but it not about their individual role.

Poor performance and attendance can be an issue in the private sector too. Their are lazy crafty employees everywhere. N they hang around in the private sector a long time if they the gift of the gab.

There not their.

@bogoffmda

Blossom toes - you obviously have a beef with doctors pay.

to put it into context 128 consultants in my dept ( anaesthesia) 20% are on over 100K.
Ignore 2020-21 where over time payments were the only thing keeping people fro dying as we were so stretched.

Get your facts right and don't allow your bitterness to show.

The minority get a CEA - I have 1 point worth about £2k - I developed and run a unique specialist service and wrote 8 papers over 4 years to get, on top of all clinicial work, oncall and admin.

No beef whatsoever and no bitterness. I think highly skilled, trained and qualified doctors, who hold lives in their hands, should be paid accordingly. You’d be mad not to.

The point I was making, had you taken the time to read what I said instead of jumping in like a bull in a china shop, is that the inclusion of consultants’ salaries in the NHS average distorts it. The average salary was being used as a reason to limit NHS pay rises.

Average salary on agenda for change is quoted not overall NHS as Doctors are on a different pay contract and excluded from the figures.

And you were the one said most consultants were on 100K - which is wrong and even if the they were added in - you would still be wrong!

Completely agree with @Onandoff.

@bogoffmda

Average salary on agenda for change is quoted not overall NHS as Doctors are on a different pay contract and excluded from the figures.

The subject of discussion was the NHS overall, subdivided into trusts and CCGs, A4C was never mentioned.. I wasn’t wrong, you didn’t read it properly.

@bogoffmda

And you were the one said most consultants were on 100K - which is wrong and even if the they were added in - you would still be wrong!

She actually didn't... The point was that consultants who are on 100k+ will bump up the overall average wage from e.g. porters on 18k. You clapping back with 'actually it's more like 84k' just backs up the original point. Wind your neck in, nobody cares how many papers you've written.

Money isn’t the only solution to the staffing crisis in the NHS and it isn’t even the biggest part of the problem but the truth is, if you are going to run an inefficient, bureaucratic service with a very unpleasant culture (not in all areas) serving an increasingly demanding (often quite rightly) public then you need to pay the staff enough that the wage compensates for the downsides.

You could address the other issues instead, people accept low wages for a great working environment.

Otherwise you will get exactly what you are getting, staff considering that actually something less responsible, less demanding on lower pay might actually be better.

The other reality is many of these jobs are truly essential, you can scrape by with 6 midwives to 14 labouring women but when there’s only 2 then you have no choice and you pay much much more to agencies. I was offered £40 an hour recently for this. So you can say ‘don’t like the pay? Leave’ but all that means is you pay me 2,3,4 times that amount plus an agency’s cut, how does that save money?

.

And staff who perform very poorly cannot really be removed from the service - the unions are very strong and the processes are huge

If by strong you mean they hold management accountable to due process then I'd agree. That's their job.

Every disciplinary by management I've seen fail is because they, the management fucked it up. Every time.

By the way OP, just how strong would you want your barrister to be, when representing on your behalf?

Oh Great, an NHS bashing thread! We haven't had one for at least a week.

It’s all relative though. I am band 7. I have a 1st class honours degree and a masters and write clinical reports with a high degree of autonomy. There isn’t anywhere for me to go in terms of pay progression,
My DH works in the private sector and earns over 200k a year. Can fit in schools runs and comes home for a nap most days. The only qualification he has is a Demond!
It doesn’t feel that great to me. But yes I do fell trapped as I am so niche there isn’t anywhere else for me to go,

Desmond!!!

Great!! all wonderful in the NHS with all our benefits and and gold-plated pension. Can't wait to see all these people on my next shift reaping the rewards. No thought not, that will be us struggling with half the staff we need, no breaks otherwise patient's suffer. As a band 6 with many years experience not sure how much more I can take. It's quality of life Vs the relentless stress.

No problems though, as all the public sector workers are desperate for my job as there conditions are so bad. My dB works for the local council and earns more than me ,gets the same sick pay, pension etc and flexible working. I won't be encouraging my DC to work in the NHS. Never thought I would say that.

Marvellous.

NHS staffing problems are solved as I assume all of you who are envious of our T&Cs are rushing to sign up.

DOI: Senior doctor. Mid 40s, planning my exit strategy.

I’m not sure why people are griping about the pay and conditions of the NHS when there are people out there who earn way more but do jobs which have much less value to the public.

And before people bleat about “tax payers money” - the private and public sector have a symbiotic relationship - you don’t get one without the other. So yes, obscene salaries in say, banking, is very relevant - especially after the 2008 banking crash where they were propped up by government support.

As a nurse at managerial level in the private sector (social care) its easy to earn upwards of 65K with a good honours degree and management qualifications.

However there is nothing but ssp and smp so you need to pay for private sick pay insurance and take shorter mat leave if your family can't absorb the loss of income for nine months.

Your bonus is performance related and irrespective of your expertise the public will view you as a low skilled arse wiper.

Swings and roundabouts.

Hehe - I don’t think it’s enough to retain staff.

If it’s good compensation (sickness pay, pension), why are there so many vacancies?

I’d rather a better work life balance and work til I’m older; than burn myself out early. When I was ‘PT’ some weeks I worked longer than my FT Non NHS DH. Not including extra courses/exams.

NHS. Bashing. Thread.

And do not turn up if you are a Dr trying to correct factually incorrect statements.

@Gingernaut

Like *@DobbyIsAFreeElf*, I have a hard time understanding the discrepancies between the different jobs, even at the same level.

Band 2 cleaners are on the same band as me - while I work in a clean environment, in layers of protective clothing, sterilizing and cleaning pharmaceutical production rooms, setting up the next day's production lines, they're in polo shirts, doing regular cleaning.

HCAs have tough routines and are paid the same as the cleaners and catering staff

Ward clerks are also Band 2, but do so much more than the average admin assistant.

Health records clerks are no in charge of clinics, instead of just collecting, replacing and picking files for clinics and wards.

The unfairness of some of the pay bands creates resentment.

I agree, the bandings are wrong. Some questionable decisions were made during the AfC process and we seem to be stuck with them.

Good “band 2s” in aseptic processing are like gold. They are the foundation without whom the whole service falls apart, and have a very different skill set to band 2 cleaning staff elsewhere.

But I guess you have the option of progressing up the ladder within the department now — I know several very senior pharmacy technicians who started as band 2s. Your equivalents in the commercial units are not paid any more highly, although opportunity for career advancement is possibly greater.

@BridesmaidHelp

NHS. Bashing. Thread.

And do not turn up if you are a Dr trying to correct factually incorrect statements.

There were no factually incorrect statements. There was, however, some incompetent reading. Let’s hope for her patients’ sake she does better at work.