to think NHS Staff have got amazing terms and conditions?

[backoffice]

I've left the NHS to go back to the private sector after 15 years. I've been reflecting a lot on my time in the NHS and something in particular that has struck me time and again are the great terms and conditions that really get people stuck in the service, so they can't leave.

In my organisation over 1/3 of staff were Band 7 or above (40-45k). Many had been in the service for many years. Statistically almost half of NHS staff are earning over 31k (band 6 or above).

The pension accrual at this level is the equivalent of an additional £15-20k contributions on top of the salary if you were buying on the open market (I'm assuming around 1k p.a. for a Band 7 into the defined benefits scheme). So that's around 1/2 NHS staff with a package of around 50k.

These benefits are really significant - especially outside of London or other cities. And staff who perform very poorly cannot really be removed from the service - the unions are very strong and the processes are huge. I managed out one person but it ended up with a criminal case - i.e. the person committed a crime and I was still struggling to get rid of them.

I needed to leave the NHS for my mental health - the whole service is so traumatised - but the financial benefits of working there far, far outweigh anything in the private sector. Most staff are, I think, basically trapped. AIBU?

I think the NHS offers a fair salary and that the annual leave, sick pay and other leave policies are brilliant. The pension while poorer than in previous years is still good. However the conditions to work in, workload and stress etc are awful. I don't think people are trapped as such but they are very aware that the package they get is unlikely to be replicated in the private sector.

Are people really going to argue that pay being so good they can't leave their job is a problem?

@kithic Doctors are medical. Nurses are clinical.

“I needed to leave the NHS for my mental health - the whole service is so traumatised“

I think you’ve answered your own question there. No, the remuneration isn’t sufficient given the conditions of work. The package was clearly not enough to compensate for what was expected of you.

I’ve worked as a senior doctor in NHS and private organisations. I’ve always been paid more (including taking account of pension) outside the NHS with more autonomy and fewer day to day hassles.

I agree where it concerns admin and managers and specialist / research nurses, not so much with nurses, cleaners, porters HCAs etc.
I worked in a hospital in the NHS for years, in admin. Managers were untrained and unskilled, recruited internally, often from clinical roles. Often totally out of their depth but taking refuge in talking in cliched management speak.
Research nurses were paid huge amounts, worked strictly 9 to 5 and seemed to be somewhat under employed.
My own working conditions were super flexible and the pay and pension were decent for what I did.
On the other hand, clinical and other staff on wards run ragged day and night with zero flexibility and that was pre-covid.

@Kithic nurses are not medical professionals, we are nursing professionals

my DH works half time as a peer support worker in mental health services. He is - and can never rise above - a Band 3. His job is massively important and stressful and yet he earns buttons. He works way and above and is always there for his clients. Good terms and conditions? Utter rubbish.

Sick pay and maternity pay are better than many private sector jobs too, from what I have read on other threads

I work for the NHS as a band 6 nurse. It is hugely stressful right now but do agree that the benefits are good. There is very good sick pay, maternity terms, carers leave etc. Pension is decent too. Private sector nursing is a lot worse when it comes to terms and conditions.

I think it you look at the level of responsibility people at the higher bands have, this will not be such a stark comparison with the private sector. In addition the levels and amounts of training needed to get to higher levels also may compare favourably with the private sector. You may be comparing apples and pears. Many higher band workers could earn mor in private work but they don't leave the NHS due to a commitment to its principles.

Backoffice yes YABU What is it wth these race to bottom threads!

And Unison has no more power than any other union, ie sod all

Yabu! Okay, some staff are a waste of space but you get that in private companies too (usually the ones with the gift of the gab).

You know how much extra work to keep up with HCPC registration and further education we are made to do?? And membership of professional bodies. I can’t progress to the next band without spending all of my spare time studying to achieve some piece of paper they want.
It’s very underpaid for the amount of responsibility you have and education/training you need.
When I was band 3 it took me a year to be trained because the job was so complex, and it was also an unofficial requirement to have a degree - they never hire anyone without one.

The pension is a joke. Unless I want to work ragged until I’m 68, I will lose 40% if I take it early. So no, not a brilliant benefit for everyone.

@Onandoff PA’s get paid quite a lot, NHS or not. I worked as a PA for a high net worth despite being qualified as a surveyor. My salary was £60,000pa in my 20s. I’d imagine if I’d stayed I had the potential to earn a lot more.

@motheroftwoboys I think the PSW roles are immoral, tbh. Without wanting to out myself, I got into some significant fights about this. They shouldn’t be employing people as Band 3s in those roles. So much wrong with it.

It’s the same in local authority social work. People get stuck because the third sector pay far less with less benefits.

backoffice - wtf
doctors are medical and nurses are clinical

No - doctors, nurses physios ots etc are clinical

And this is absolutely an NHS bashing thread.

I would say the benefits are reasonable. Just because employers don't offer it in the private sector doesn't mean that they are excessive

The pay is not particularly great. You have to take into account unsociable hours, risk involved amount of work done, qualifications etc

Personally I could earn a lot more in the private sector. A nurse in my area would earn less but that does not mean the NHS benefits are fantastic, more that a lot of private companies take the piss.

YABU - those band 7's and above whose salary you are begrudging will either have a masters or will be working toward one.
They will have very significant clinical responsibilities and/or very significant management responsibilities (managing huge budgets or huge numbers of staff).

For their qualifications and experience, they are vastly underpaid compared to teachers will the same levels of qualifications and the same levels of extra responsibilities.

Nurses do not get paid extra for every extra responsibility they take on, unlike teachers (e.g. in addition to their normal role, a senior nurse might also be responsible for recruitment, teaching, supplies or the whole department's rota, for no extra money).

Plus some of them get to risk their lives treating highly infectious Covid patients in inadequate PPE (which is lower grade than the general public have to wear to the supermarket in Germany, and in the USA they must wear FFP3 masks, while in the UK FFP1 is all you get).

Plus the added bonus of a dose of PTSD for many after treating thousands of Covid patients, seeing hundreds die, in the past 18 months.

Plus the opportunities to acquire every new variant of Covid, but that's OK because you are vaccinated so hopefully fingers crossed you will be OK, after all if you weren't one of the 1500 health and social care staff who DIED from Covid in the past 18 months, your chances are not too bad, just don't mention the Long Covid...

YABVVVVVU

The pension is extremely valuable. Amazingly I know NHS staff who have opted out of the pension which is crazy. Stress levels are really high though.

Never understand the bashing of admin workers 'back office/pen pushers' etc. Without them the medical and clinical staff couldn't do their jobs.

The terms and conditions, the pensions and staff 'perks' (Blue Light Card, NHS Black Card, discounts in stores) are better than in the private sector - definitely

However, what's being asked of medical staff is a huge difference to the workplaces of private staff.

It can be wearing, harrowing and deeply upsetting on a daily basis.

The point was, that the staff employment conditions would be better, because the pay and working conditions were shit.

Many of the lower band support staff are on the very bottom of Band 2, part time and sometimes on fixed or zero hours contracts

HR departments are notoriously poor - slow recruitment times, lack of accountability and poor mentoring and anti-bullying procedures

The expectation that someone from a clinical background is also a good mentor, tutor and manager is laughable - yet senior clinical staff are expected to be on boards, in upper management, lead teams and lay down policies as well as mentoring in their specialism.

The NHS is not, overall, a good employer for many of the lower bands, clinical or support.

No mentoring, very little training and managers absent in meetings a lot of the time.

And it were so super duper, why are there tens of thousands of unfilled positions?
Could it be that the working conditions are totally horrendous and actually for these posts you need to be highly skilled and highly qualified.
Staff shortages don't occur if the positions are overpaid.

I'll lket others judge whether you've pitched anecdata and estimates bundled under an 'amazing' badge but to look at it in the roune, you might want to state:
the % full time and % part time as you seem to be putting out FT figures and I thought the NHS has a significant PT workforce;
the mode and median AfC band of NHS staff (need to check but was this around Band 5 and 6 - was this Band 5 NQ to Staff nurse with experience, Band 6 nursing specialist having done additional training)
the employer's contribution rate (was this 20%?);
the average pension payment to retirees which I thought was less than £5000 the last time I looked. Skewed to reflect the PT and actual careers I expect.

Amazing.

Blue Light Card, NHS Black Card, discounts in stores
These 'discounts' are no different the discounts available to everyone on Vouchercodes.
Just marketing schemes to get people to spend money, just the same as signing up to Vouchercodes/Hotdeals etc.
Nothing different or extra at all.