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To believe theres an increase in cocklodgers and men have lost their pride in providing?(223 Posts)
Just musing this to myself today.
There seems to be a steady increase in cocklodgers in modern day life. Not just on MN but real life too.
Since women have gained better equality in the workplace, a lot of men seem to be taking a back seat or opting out completely in providing. More than happy to let their wives and girlfriends pay the bills or watch them go broke paying for everything whilst they spend their earnings or 'fun stuff' even if they earn more.
They don't cringe or feel ashamed watching their wife struggle. Its baffling.
Its not just that.. But also the pride in providing seems to be gone? Before there was better working opportunities in the work place for women, men were the sole providers for a lot of families. This used to come with some level of pride for men. Most of them WANTED to provide and for their children to be able to do activities like sports, brownies, scouts etc. They were happy to put food on the table. They would be proud their wife was able to get her hair done if she wished and keep the house nice, cupboards full etc.
Now however a lot of men seem to treat their women with almost contempt if they need help financially or don't earn as much?
The thing i find interesting is that women that work and earn more than their spouse dont seem to harbour this same attitude. They're more than happy to provide for their families. They'll buy a new rug for the living room, new charcter bedding for the kids and pay for their swimming lessons out of their own money. They'll also buy their partners nice birthdays and christmas presents.
So its not a two way thing it seems.
I think whats most intriguing for me is that 'wife work' and the 'mental load' still seems to fall majorly to women. So a lot of men havent caught up with that yet. But at the same time most of those very same men still want modern day 50/50 finances. So they dont believe the home is their 'domain' but yet they don't want to be the 'provider' either. How does that make sense?
When i look at previous generations in my family, although my grandfather didn't lift a finger at home in terms of cooking, cleaning and childcare (which is wrong), he was a very proud man and was proud of the fact he was provided a good lifestyle for his family. He was happy for my gran to manage the finances and the kids to go on days out. He was proud he could give his family a lovely house and buy a car.
He would work lots of overtime to provide.
It seems it was the same for most men of that generation.
I could be talking complete bollocks. But be interested to hear your thoughts as to why mens attitudes have changed in this regard? Why is their an incresse I'm cocklodgers and resentment in providing?
YABU = there is no rise in cocklodgers/financially stingy men.
YANBU = there is a rise in cocklodgers and an increase in men not wanting to provide.
You are talking complete bollocks
And looking for a bun fight by the look of it.
Better things to do
I think it is hard to tell if there is actually an increase or not. My speculation would be that social media nowadays shines a light on these things a lot more. In past generations once you left school/contact with people you wouldn't necessarily know what they were doing with their lives. Now, thanks to FB, you know that wee Jimmy from high school is a layabout, or who has emigrated to Dubai in a high flying career.
There's plenty tales out there of the days where men did indeed go to work, but they only gave their wives the pin money and they drank/gambled the rest away. Or the wives just never know what he earned and they had to be happy with only having enough for a loaf of bread and a pint of milk.
One family member of mine who is in her late 60s had an amazing career and her husband would simply do odd jobs long enough to get her off his back before returning to his days of playing golf and meandering around the house.
So, I think it has always existed, we just have more of a keyhole into other peoples lives than we ever had before.
Tight fisted men didn’t have more integrity in the past, just there were fewer women had the opportunity to earn money.
Entitlement driven by extreme porn and MRAs.
It seems it was the same for most men of that generation
This is where all your "most men in the past" stuff comes from? Your grandad? A sample of one man you've decided can stand for a population in widely varying circumstances?
You don't have a very good evidence base for your comments.
Your rose tinted view of the past based on your personal experience extrapolated out is not a good point of comparison.
Far too many of my successful, beautiful female friends who have their whole lives ahead of them are tied down with cocklodgers. They have high flying careers and house and feed these men who have zero ambition beyond hooking a wealthy woman to be their new mummy. I don't think they've weighed up the risks of marrying/having DC with these men who will end up being RP if they split.
I work to provide for my family, I am proud to enable my husband to stay home and care for our children now they aren't babies. He is not as you so eloquently put it 'a cock lodger'
Your point about sharing the domestic load is the most valid imo. Many working men whose wives also work seem to still leave most or all of the chores and child stuff to their wives, especially if the man is the higher earner. Your share of chores should be based on the comparative hours you work, not money.
Well, there was a thread yesterday about a man who earned three times what his wife did. Her car gave up, so he said he would LOAN (yes loan)! her the money for a new one WITH INTEREST!!
It seems there are many men on here and so presumably in real life these days, who see themselves as a separate entity when it comes to their family. The “my” money, “your” money” attitude. Some women interpret having “their” money in a marriage as “independence” but, ultimately, it’s invariably the woman’s earnings that take the hit once DC come along. Other women seem delighted to be given “allowances” - as if their DH is bestowing some great favour on his family. I personally think it’s all bollocks and some women are allowing men to have their cake and eat it.
I voted Yanbu OP. I don’t necessarily think cocklodging has increased, but a proportion of blokes have always been abusive arseholes. The fact that women now often out-earn men just gives them another thing to exploit and abuse, ie the woman’s financial position. And women can be “people-pleasers” so perhaps more inclined to go with it 🤷🏻♀️
It can go the other way too - I met plenty of women coasting through law college hoping for an ambitious bloke with partnership aspirations to make them a Cheshire housewife. OTOH women who earn too much/are too ambitious are often passed over by men - my most vicious dumping was by a bloke who actually met/shagged someone else, but told our mutual friends I was “too career focused” and not willing to commit. It was bullshit, but guess who got their sympathy?
Basically, a lot of men are shits.
Nothing worse than a tight or an unmotivated bloke IMO
My DH is neither which is why I married him.
@nocluewhattodoo you are bang on. I have a very good professional job and most the women in relationships seem to be with cocklodgers who do the bare minimum in both employment and the house. Not many dating equal earners.
There does seem to be a correlation between high earning women dating unemployed/work shy men.
Someone else posted something about their dh being a SAHD. Well how is he a cocklodger?! Hes looking after house and kids?
@antisupermum interesting point about social media. That most definitely would have an affect!!
I don’t think necessarily it’s increasing. However, for me, my exP was a cocklodger. He was self employed but only worked enough hours to break even - didn’t earn anything above that to live off. Was (still is) very lazy, worked minimal hours and didn’t share the domestic load. We’d agreed he’d give me £100 per week ‘keep’ to cover all rent, bills and food costs, but I rarely received anything. When I reached breaking point and said he had to step up or leave, he shrugged and left. He owes me £14,000 unpaid ‘keep’, and pays zero maintenance for our DD. I cannot understand why he has zero pride. But, I think I was just unlucky and was the only idiot to put up with it for so long. He saunters through life without a care in the world, getting by on being a nice cheeky chappy. He’s now cocklodging at his new girlfriend. Thing is he’s a friendly nice type of personality, so she’s probably just happy for some company. I just started getting too resentful, after years of this. At times I think I was justified, other times I just feel sad and alone, and think I should have put up , just for the company. I’m 50 now, single mother , can’t see me meeting anyone else.
I can see how you might have the perception that there are more but actually I think you have a really rose tinted perspective of the past tbh. We have better means of communication these days and women are much more likely to speak out about problems/inequality in the home these days than in the past, when issues in the home would have been more likely to be hidden/not discussed. Still, it's the same old shit, same old inequalities, same sense of male entitlement we're having to deal with, just in a new modern context.
When's your deadline? How many words do you have to write?
Agree with both social media/ places like MN providing an insight into people’s lives that wouldn’t have happened in the past.
Past generations were far from perfect. Like @Mintjulia & @antisupermum have pointed out, men earned money but kept it secret from their wives as well as not lifting a finger around the house, and there was no support for women who were trapped in crap marriages. The general state of things is better now overall, but I agree there are a lot of women in crap relationships, still.
I earn more than DP and on balance I do more housework. It’s not a situation I enjoy being in, but it’s difficult to unpick whether it’s an ingrained effect of the patriarchy or whether I have higher standards. I expect it’s a bit of both really.
Why do people always think I'm a journalist whenever i post? 😂😂
If you go through my search history you'll see on the first page of every thread im accused of being a journalist!! 😂😂
I don't know my! My spelling is shite and grammar appaling. So id be a shocking writer! Haha. Also my threads have never been published anywhere as far as i know! Is it because i don't talk about personal issues directly relating to myself?
I do, but post under a different username for that. Anyway MNHQ can verify me if need me.
But I'm no jouranlist.
Anyways i think you may be right regarding the past. I suppose people (women) never spoke out about what shits their husbands were or if they were stingy whereas now we have outlets such as MN to say!
Actually I think you do have a point, I also think the reason for the difference come from naturally leaning towards imitating and replicating what you’ve seen growing up and bridging the gap to whats expected nowadays.
At my age (late 30s) I grew up watching my mum/nana do all the child rearing, my dad worked. When I was very young and before my parents split the set up was very traditional, dad at work and mum at home. This changed after the split and my mum worked and I saw my dad in the kitchen cooking a meal for the first time and he became a bit more hands on with us kids than he had previously been.
Growing up I was certainly told I could have it all, a career, financial independence, husband and children etc. I absolutely expected to have it all too and believed all I had to do was work hard.
I think it’s very easy to not realise the weight of what we see and experience growing up and how it becomes ingrained in who we are and what we tend to expect or put up with as adults. It’s easy in theory to say that you expect and equal partner who pulls his weight around the house, contributes financially and it an equal parent and as hands on with the kids as you are. However it’s also easy to fall into the trap of falling in love and finding that true relationship equality not at all as easy as you thought (especially after having kids). Sometimes it’s all to easy to put up with a man who won’t do the dishes or a night feed because your already accustomed to it as that’s what you experienced growing up. Also who wants to be constantly having the battle of trying to make the other person be equal in all matters when it’s easier to just get on with it yourself. We also often excuse our partners on the grounds that they are nice, caring, are not abusive, don’t cheat, earn well or whatever, almost as if it’s a case of not rocking the half decent boat. Lots of us also have mothers who will tell us we are lucky to have these men because by their generational standards its better than what they had in their day.
I also think it’s quiet common to have or think you have a good and equal relationship when it’s just the two of you, throw having children into the mix and it’s funny how often the equality soon devolves!
men have lost their pride in providing?
What utter bollocks is this?
I agree and the bothersome part for me isn't so much the financial responsibility, but the sheer gall many of these so-called men have in insisting on being treated like the "man of the house". Like dismissing things in the home or child rearing arena to be "women's work", etc.
I just feel like they can't have it both ways. They NEED to pick up the slack at home if they aren't doing it outside the home. There's NO SHAME at all in being a good house husband if your wife is pulling in the bulk of the financial assets outside the home. There's no such thing as manly or womanly duties in my eyes. It's getting it done as a team without one or the other being completely drained and unhelped.
Feminism is looked at as a dirty word by so many and I just can't understand why. Isn't feminism just equality between the sexes? I can't help but feel that anti-feminists are just ignorant to the meaning? Or am I missing something?
I don't hate men. I don't hate women. I just think people should be responsible individuals and do what works for them without hurting or subjugating an entire gender.
i hate to say it but this 'cocklodger' business is probably the one area where i see male/female double standards on mumsnet, some of the stuff people come out with is genuinely astonishing.
Unless its some form of abusive relationship and we would be helping her get out of that hole, then really how one household works is no business of ours. If she is happy to live with someone that doesn't do enough in our eyes then that's her/their business.
I think men with families are, and always have been, a mixture of decent hard working types, and lazy arseholes. These days the partners of the lazy arseholes are better able to provide for themselves, previously a lot of women were badly abused, genuinely went hungy while DH was down the pub drinking his wages, and couldn't leave because they had no way of earning. My Gma in law took in lodgers to feed and clothe her four children because her abusive husband wouldn't give her any money. Arseholes have always been arseholes, they just potentially have less impact these days as women can be more independent.