Any City lawyers here? Do I need to quit?

[BurningOutt]

I feel like I might be approaching burn out, but as a result am not really in a position to think straight.

Im 38, 11pqe and on partner “track” in litigation in a US firm - should have been due to be made up this year but apparently it will be next now due to vague firmwide politics. I’m heading for 2100 hours this year, have brought in my own client, am running cases for head of team with minimal supervision. Associates are heavily weighted towards junior end so im
also doing a lot of the work as well as management. I know that I am excellent at my job, a good lawyer and a good manager, and I enjoy it (when it’s not this intense).

But my kids are 5 and 7 and I feel like I’ve barely seen them this year. I feel like the last few years since dc1 started school in particular have flown by - my dc2 was a baby then and now she’s not.

My DH is a low earner and both of us come from working class backgrounds so even though I earn v well we have a small house, big mortgage. Up till this September when dc2 started school I was paying 40% of my takehome salary to the nanny so haven’t had a flush life at all.

I feel like just throwing in the towel and leaving London, finding a slower paced, lower paid job. But I worry that I will regret it as I’m so close to the “prize” now and the extra money could make a massive difference to my kids’ future.

I grew up in poverty so was massively motivated to do this job to avoid my kids having the childhood I had, but in hindsight I had so much more time with my mum and I wonder if that love and time investment is ultimately what helped me to thrive?

I’ve also always wanted 3 kids and my time there is obviously running out, and would probably be totally unsustainable on top of my job as it is right now (and do I just want the mat leave to have a break).

Should I just push through and things will get better, or give it up and start afresh?

This sounds tough. I don't think you should bring a third child in to this situation though - it sounds like you barely see the children you do have so taking even more time and attention away from them doesn't seem fair or right. Hope you find a good balance x

Would it be possible for your DH to work less/ stop work to spend more time with the kids? If you can afford that financially it might make sense.

It is so frustrating for you to be pushed back another year in the partner process. Are there any external partner opportunities you could try and seek out instead?

Or partner opportunities at a smaller non-US London firm, which would still be well paid?

I’m a lawyer but no longer practicing as i moved overseas and didn’t want to requalify. I still work in the legal sector at a top tier firm.

In your position I would be asking myself if the main issues I’m facing would get any better being a partner. Would it give you more time to spend with your DC or more flexibility? The situation with the juniors seems like it’s playing a big part in how you’re able to balance your workload, so will that change any time soon?

Many of the female lawyers at my firm leave at SA/MA leave and go in house when they have children. Is this something you’d consider if you wanted to leave? You’d still be well remunerated and it would go a lot further outside of London.

Could you consider partnership in a firm with regional offices? Coming from a US firm there would be a lot of open doors, so you could stay in a role you enjoy but with a little less stress.

I have a few friends going through the same thoughts at the moment, myself included. You’re not the only one wondering if the rat race is really worth it!

Thank you.

In response to some questions - I wouldn’t ask DH to stop work - it means so much to him. He spends a good amount of time with the kids as it is (3 after school days) so I think is pulling his weight.

Re moving firm - I have considered it but by the time I got something lined up (which is a big if as I don’t have a book of business as a litigator) it would probably be almost promotion time again…no doubt my firm has made exactly the same calculation.

In house doesn’t appeal at all as I genuinely love litigation/black letter law and no interest in business. But perhaps if I had much more of an actual life outside of work I could feign such an interest.

@StellaShining you’re right and lots of the issues will be exactly the same…I guess I will just be getting paid more and it might feel a bit more “worth it”. All these juniors whose work I am effectively having to do are in dual lawyer couples and have no kids and so have significantly more disposable income than I do due to massive salary inflation and pay bunching. I know it’s awful to complain about being hard done by when I earn a lot but I really am not living the life I thought I would have on this salary. I’m carrying all the stress and responsibility right now for an entire team of people and not being recognised or rewarded for it.

At the moment I feel I’m sacrificing so much in terms of my own time and probably physical and mental health (I am logged on right now and should be working) and not seeing the benefits. But perhaps they will come later when eg I can help my kids uni fees! I don’t know.

I would say make partner and then look at options - being a partner will make other options easier in my experience

Don't make the decision now. Push on until you make partner, then decide.
And good luck!

I literally just posted on another thread about how I gave up a 15year pqe career in the law to be a SAHM and am so happy I made that decision, in reply to a woman in that position now who is so glad she did the opposite.

There’s no right answer. The best answer is the one that’s right for you and the people you have already made commitments to: your husband and children. I also was financially independent (for life) when I made my decision. The opposite of the breadwinner you are.

FWIW - which could be nothing at all - in your shoes I’d take a less well remunerated job that could afford me a family life. I only have a handful of years before my youngest flies the nest. It goes in the blink of an eye and the realisation that time only goes one way and you never get it back only dawned in my late 40s.

2100 billable hours is insane. I couldn’t fathom having to put a client ahead of my children - but then I don’t have bills to pay. If I did, I’d do it only to the extent I needed to to pay said bills and put some aside for the DCs’ futures.

I will say also that meaning and purpose doesn’t come only from the job you’re employed to do. You enjoy the law. That’s excellent and means you have many, many routes to a purposeful life - and one that you can balance with DC.

Go in-house. If at all possible, hang in there until you make partner as you'll get much better senior role opportunities if you have that on your CV - so you'll get decent pay and interesting work but without the hellish hours.

I think you would regret giving up completely - as the main breadwinner you'd be choosing a lifestyle for your family that you may well wish you hadn't.

You could take a step back but it's so hard to get back in once you are out. The jobs market is not good at present for senior professional roles.

What makes you happy? I think you probably don’t know. You might love your job, but can’t see it or feel it because it’s tied to those core feelings and drive from childhood that you feel you must do it to avoid Bad Things. And most of your discussion about moving away from it is about what might be best for your kids, it sounds like they’re well adjusted and have regular time from a primary caregiver, their dad. I can understand you feel you have missed out on the kids, but they’ll need you differently at 5 and 7. They’ve had a fantastic time with the nanny. Your kids deserve a happy, fulfilled mum. Don’t rush to throw away the job and career, go to therapy to talk it through. It won’t be quick, as you say you went on this path in childhood. The burnout may be eased with a different perspective. A total lifestyle change, location, budget, home, friends, daily routine is a huge quantum of change and exhausting in itself. Your kids are used to their status quo. Of course you’re burning out, it sounds like you do nothing just for yourself at the moment and perhaps not for a long time. Can you take a planned sabbatical of a few months or a year in 2027? Planning and looking forward to that might revive you.

How much do you earn now and how much will you earn as partner? And will being partner mean less hours?

As someone who gave up there career for time with my kids. I loved every minute of being with them and seeing them grew but not they are adults they don’t give a shit about me. They are the most ungrateful brats and I constantly wonder if I made the wrong choice now.

Ive just turned down a job that would double my salary as I would never see my kids. But I am kicking myself as I think I would have loved the job.
I have had burn out before though and its like hitting a brick wall.
I am in a total quandy of what to do with my life too.
I dont think its easy being a working mum.
I went to a talk in my current job from some senior women about juggling work and motherhood and also being successful. The most successful woman on the panel said ' without my nannys, my cleanersand my mum living round the corner I wouldnt have done it' and then I just felt like shit as I thought, well i can't afford an army of people and have no family nearby so thats me fucked then, might as well give up.
Its hard but there is more to life than work. But if you have potential then you feel you are wasting it if you dont try.
Can you take a sabitcal? Lots of law firms offer them.

Will getting to partner reduce the workload? I know how tough that environment is through family.

All my female friends have gone in-house post dc.

You’re not the only one wondering if the rat race is really worth it!

That's the problem now, life is so expensive that you don't always even get the monetary pay off.

At 7pqe I had burn out and went in house as my DH has a big job too and I knew we both couldn’t have big jobs and a family. I took a sacrifice in terms of pay and quality of work. But my then my career became a ‘job’ to me and I knew my focus was my DC. I think it depends what your career means to you in terms of fulfilment. Do you need to love what you do and enjoy feeling challenged (but not see your DC, or is ‘good enough, good enough’ in a lower type of job?

figure out what’s important to you, what you need from a job, how much money you need and then take a view. There is no right answer and whatever you pick doesn’t need to be your decision forever. You can always move around.

butttt, if you’re super close to partner and it’s a shoo in the coming year, maybe get the title and runnnnnnn

You’re so close - if I were in your shoes I would stay to make partner, even if it means not having a third child. That’s assuming that your remuneration then will be significantly higher than now.

Thank you for the thoughtful responses. @BakeOffRewatch yours especially resonated a lot.

On pay, my firm has a salaried partner structure for the first 3 years before equity opens up (so another treadmill to jump on) but still a big pay rise.

It does seem crazy to back out now but equally I have had such a hard year. I didn’t mention this and now will seem like major drip feed but I had a miscarriage at 12 weeks this time last year, almost bled to death (ambulance, blood transfusion after I lost consciousness in A&E, emergency surgery), and I was back at work on something urgent 3 days later.

We don’t have any family nearby either and the dcs early childhood has all seemed really tough and a juggle rather than lovely. They are gorgeous children and thriving and I suddenly feel so conscious they are slipping away from me.

None of this is very coherent but it’s helpful to say it!

I should also say that my current job title is Counsel rather than SA - if anyone with any intel knows whether that’s more helpful for in house/other roles, or whether Partner really does open more doors in this context.

A female litigation partner I once worked with had negotiated an agreement where she could take August off unpaid every year, in addition to normal annual leave. In effect it was like using unpaid parental leave although that didn’t exist back then. She got a good solid chunk of time with her kids, at a time they were off school, so this gave her more time with them than working shorter hours year round.

Could you do this? Maybe not in the run up to partnership, but once in there? (I am not sure whether employment rights like unpaid parental leave apply to salaried partners, think it depends whether you are a partner legally or still an employee).

The things that stand out to me:

Your kids are thriving.
You like your job - you like litigation and black letter law and other jobs don’t appeal as much.
You’re nearly at partnership which once achieved should make it easier to move firms (including out of London) - I think partnership makes moves easier even if you don’t have your own client book. Counsel is a dual purpose title IME - it’s used for “partner in the making” but also used for “good lawyer, but never going to be partner”. So not as helpful as Partner for moves.
Your kids are 5 and 7 - so they are currently going to bed quite early but this will get later and you will see more of them. Don’t underestimate this change!
You’re the main earner with a big mortgage.

I would stick with it if you possibly can. But not to the point where you are losing the plot. And look at options to make the balance better, either now or once partnership is achieved.

I’m so sorry about your miscarriage, that sounds brutal.

It’s a really hard call especially if they are dangling partnership. If you’re at a US firm, can you move to a good upper mid-size firm and go in as partner or a solid promise and at least shed some hours?

I know how you must feel - I’m far older than you but working what feels like ridiculously hard and,
like @jonthebatiste my children are older and I’ve realised it’s almost too late to spend proper time with them - or not be so tired when I’m not working not to be wiped out.

If the overall hours commitment won’t improve if you make partner where you are, I’d definitely try and go to a slightly different firm and get a balance that way.

Hope you find something which works better - the hours and culture are brutal. I’m definitely feeling like I’m at my limit.

They’ve had a fantastic time with the nanny

How do you know that?

It is really tough. I did the jump to in house and am now GC but we had our children comparatively early (4 &6 years PQE) so there were mentions of partnership but too early for anything to be convincingly dangled!

I don’t think there is anywhere near as much good litigation work in house - the in house litigators I know have tended to end up focusing on construction adjudication and mediation if they do it themselves - everything else gets instructed out. However, I do think there is a lot of scope to change firms and potentially location which might help with hours - even billing 1600 a year will be easier than 2100. In terms of when, it depends how likely the current promise is to be fulfilled. I think I would view it that they could have one more year and if it is postponed again (whatever the reason), they are going to keep me dangling and not deliver so I would also keep my eyes open for alternatives and potentially start looking in earnest.

it doesn’t help with the third baby longing - if that is the primary focus, I’d start trying to leave now and potentially consider leaving London as well.

Obviously the poster couldn’t know that but it is in fact the case. We had the same person for 5 years (from when DC1 was 1) and we all adore her - she is one of the family.

Thank you all for the thoughtful advice. @slightlyunimpressed that is my impression with in-house litigation but maybe it’s a sacrifice that I need to make.

Just coming back to the thread as I’ve had another absolutely brutal few weeks at work and I feel right now that I really can’t do it anymore. I don’t want to live like this where all of my personal life is downgraded and sacrificed to enable me to do this job. I feel like I’m risking my mental and physical health and all of my relationships. I talked to DH and he understands.

I think the only option really is to leave London, as I don’t think we could pay our mortgage on a significantly lower salary. I have no idea what in house jobs pay but I suspect the majority are below what I earn now.

Does anyone have any idea about the legal markets in other U.K. cities and whether a better quality of life if possible? DH would want to be commutable distance to London (2-3 days a week during academic year).

Don’t leave. Last it out until you’ve got to where you need to go. Delegate, delegate, delegate.

@toonananana I don’t think there is an end in sight…I’ve got another full year of this before making partner and then what…another 20 years of the same.