Any City lawyers here? Do I need to quit?

[BurningOutt]

I feel like I might be approaching burn out, but as a result am not really in a position to think straight.

Im 38, 11pqe and on partner “track” in litigation in a US firm - should have been due to be made up this year but apparently it will be next now due to vague firmwide politics. I’m heading for 2100 hours this year, have brought in my own client, am running cases for head of team with minimal supervision. Associates are heavily weighted towards junior end so im
also doing a lot of the work as well as management. I know that I am excellent at my job, a good lawyer and a good manager, and I enjoy it (when it’s not this intense).

But my kids are 5 and 7 and I feel like I’ve barely seen them this year. I feel like the last few years since dc1 started school in particular have flown by - my dc2 was a baby then and now she’s not.

My DH is a low earner and both of us come from working class backgrounds so even though I earn v well we have a small house, big mortgage. Up till this September when dc2 started school I was paying 40% of my takehome salary to the nanny so haven’t had a flush life at all.

I feel like just throwing in the towel and leaving London, finding a slower paced, lower paid job. But I worry that I will regret it as I’m so close to the “prize” now and the extra money could make a massive difference to my kids’ future.

I grew up in poverty so was massively motivated to do this job to avoid my kids having the childhood I had, but in hindsight I had so much more time with my mum and I wonder if that love and time investment is ultimately what helped me to thrive?

I’ve also always wanted 3 kids and my time there is obviously running out, and would probably be totally unsustainable on top of my job as it is right now (and do I just want the mat leave to have a break).

Should I just push through and things will get better, or give it up and start afresh?

Thank you @LadyClumber and I’m sorry to hear that you’ve had a familiar experience - well done for having the strength to make the right decision!

I have thought about PSL type roles but what I really love about litigation (and am very good at) is a combination of investigating/building a case/coming up with a strategy and then the written advocacy. By contrast I quite dislike giving presentations (and certainly preparing them), so I don’t think I would be suited to a PSL job at all.

If I could do my job but without having to do the insane hours and without feeling like I need to constantly bullshit the powers that be, that would be my choice. I do feel the government legal service would probably be a good fit but it doesn’t pay enough, which I think means finding a firm that offers a better balance, and probably also moving house to accommodate that.

Why the desperation to be a partner? For the salary? Is it really worth missing out on your kids growing up?
surely a lower paid position and more time with the kids is the best option.
being a partner isn’t the be all and end all

Ask yourself what your children want from their mum. You say they had a great time with their nanny. What do they do with you?

@racierach if you’ve got “desperation to be a partner” from my posts I’m not sure what you’ve been reading.

I set out to become a city solicitor because, having grown up in poverty, and despite having aspirations to do other things (academia and the arts), I knew I wanted to have children and be able to provide for them. As the main breadwinner in my family (and without any family support from either side either financially or with the kids) I haven’t had the luxury of being able to step back at any point. I have worked full time since returning from maternity leave so that I can pay the mortgage and support our family (and also enable my DH to do the job he loves).

Being a partner isn’t an aspiration as such, it’s the “natural” conclusion to a career in a law firm where it is typically “up or out”. So far, I haven’t opted for “out” because (a) I’m excellent at my job and (b) I need to pay the bills. The status and the big salary aren’t factors in my decision-making at all, other than there is a minimum I need to be paid to cover our outgoings, and that right now I am doing the job of a partner but not being paid for it, which is annoying.

It’s simple to say take a lower paid position and spend more time with the kids but in practical terms that means selling their family home and moving them out of their lovely (state) school and away from all their friends. It’s not an easy decision at all, but the “is it worth it” question is the point of this thread.

@BurningOuttsending you warmest wishes. It is so tough. Maybe try and speak to some recruiters including for top offshore firms. I feel like you’re either going to stick it out and make partner and then hire a counsel or strong senior associate to help you OR you have the conversation now to get them to hire someone senior to help you. Can you try to use someone from another office in the US for example? I know it’s not easy. You’re doing great. Can you at least work from home more or try to carve out the entire day on Saturdays for you and the kids leave your phone at home. And also just book a week off to recharge spend time with the kids / pull a sickie if you can’t get leave. X

I’m a lawyer. I understand the wanting to be partner but at what cost. And reality is what does it matter.
you’ve done incredibly well for yourself and you should be immensely proud of yourself.
but you don’t have to be a partner.

@BurningOutt do you know any good recruiters in your specialism? I am a financial lines insurance litigator and have connections with a couple of good recruiters who know the insurance firms really well. I presume there are equivalents for comm lit or whichever area you’re in. Perhaps it would be worth talking to one about options out there still in private practice but without the US firm culture. I don’t see why it needs to be all (staying where you are) or nothing (going in house). There must be a middle ground where you can achieve a better work/life balance.

Take a break. Before burn out hits.
Get signed off if you have to.
see a therapist.

consider some marriage counselling so you can work through this together. But def get your own therapist.
also consider getting a coach at work, if you don’t have one already.

and go meet some recruiters. Is there a better firm for you that doesn’t have the US culture?

or perhaps promise yourself a stint overseas after making partner? If you are working all hours without family support then your kids might as well have sunshine and the outdoors / the sea etc. (I have known wives to negotiate this as part of their agreement that their DH aims for partner)

But I would caution about jumping out now. I did this a few years ago and have regretted it. As did another friend.

just because you go somewhere else does not mean it is a 9-5. There is still the childcare / mortgage juggle but with less money coming in and fewer prospects.

consider getting a female mentor at your work. A senior female partner who has kids and a husband that works. Extra points if they have a similar background to you.

failing that ask one of the City Networks if they have a mentoring scheme where you could find a senior lawyer in london with that sort of profile. They need to have a working husband (I found all the female role models didn’t have working husbands, or had no kids and a husband with a creative job - think artist or photographer)

I don’t know what job your DH does but you also need to address whether he is doing enough work wise or will there be resentment in 10 years time when he has had a stress free life, looking fit & young, run off with the danish nanny leaving you old and haggard with teenagers who are hormonal cyclones.

doing a job he loves is great until it is at the expense of YOUR sanity. So be really sure this is the right path for him, as well as for you and your family.

I am not a lawyer, but to add my two penneth worth. I always worked FT and dd started nursery aged 5 months. However, it was when she hit her teens / secondary school that i was glad I had reached a position where i had a lot more flexibility. The cliche is small child, small problems, big child.....I found when younger, she was happy with afterschool club with her friends, and food and a bedtime story were more important. When older, she wanted many more chats about things, help with homework, navigating the world, or just me to sit and watch the Big Bang Theory with her every evening for a while. Maybe I didn't get the balance right either, but at least we could afford to put away money for her, support her through Uni etc. She's just started a Master's, seems very well adjusted and hasn't got any cheaper yet. :) I'd try to max your career before they reach that age and then see...

Litigator here. I dedicated 18 months of my life to getting the dream big ticket litigation case and did a great job.
I get that it’s addictive/seductive/all feels real.

Other people worked half as hard and were happier….I think their associate non-recruitment is the issue

@Lionessadmirer what do you do now? I think there is definitely an addictive element to it in that I’m very driven and competitive, but not in a sharp-elbowed self-promoting way/with people in my team (unfortunately for my career) - I just like to get things right at work and try to win for the client.

I do enjoy it but just would like to do a lot less of it so that my life is more balanced. You are right that the SA gap is my biggest problem right now.

Hi - I have my own firm now.

What I think I'm recognising in you is that tendency to overwork for the benefit of others - your conscientiousness and intellect start to work against you. You require a better manager - someone who understands and respects that pattern, and helps you step back from it - not someone who just benefits from it (and probably then turns around and calls you "emotional").

The question is: has it gone too far? is it too entrenched? If you told them that the department would do a lot better with a skilful new associate in it would they listen?

If the prospects for real change are low (and bear in mind that the status quo suits everyone except you) I'd move within London to a same-tier firm. The idea that in the regions you would work less hard is only true if the overwork comes 100% from the firm. If it comes from you, you'll repeat the pattern. Bear in mind that working with CEOs and founders brings greater influence over the client (which is wonderful) but sometimes their whole future is in your hands and you know them by name - don't tell me you're not going to work the weekend for a small business just because their dispute hasn't got as many zeros on it.....

I think you need to

wait it out / make partner
consider moving to a commuter town for smaller mortgage
then reconsider options career wise: you could be in house with more manageable job but longer commute with hybrid working for w/l balance

please rule out having a third child. That is an utterly bonkers idea

Also consider a life coach as @Lionessadmirer has made some valid points

@Lionessadmirer thank you - really good insights. I actually spoke to my boss yesterday - in the context of giving feedback on the rest of the team - and really laid it out for him that their shortcomings are having a massive impact on me and it can’t continue. He listened and said he’d take it away. It’s a starting point at least.

I think though that you are right that there is a big risk that the same thing would happen elsewhere, so I need to reflect on that.

@opencecilgee thank you too for your comments - interestingly I had such a strong reaction to you saying that a third child would be bonkers, that it really made it clear to me that that is something I definitely do want. So I’m going to have to make it work by making some changes somehow.

I know someone similar, had a sahh and a nanny, she did make partner and is now not working at all due to burn out and stress - she got a decent payout but had to sell her flat (they live in her DH house) to afford to live. It sounds like these lawyer jobs have amazing salaries but that’s because you’re going the work of three normal full time jobs.

I did mention this earlier up the thread, but I suggest a career coach, which is more specialised

I'm not a lawyer. Forensic accountant partner. They put me back by one year when I failed an interview as I was working on a big project with little support. That year went really quickly and set my case up brilliantly. Also they really did need to promote me and the head of my stream made it clear that they wanted me to stay, tough it out and a lot of other partners got involved to support me as I pushed through.

I'm in a similar position to you in that I have a junior team and I try and avoid getting stuck in delivery but it's hard when your success is depending on people who don't do as good a job as you.

So I would say to tough it out but it sounds like they are stringing you along.

I'd put my CV together and start speaking to recruiters. I don't know if you can do that and still stay focused on partner track at your firm. Mine was a full time job on top of the day job. I also don't know what the job market is like now. Certainly in accountancy it's harder.

Look at Manchester or Birmingham. With London equity from your house you coukd maybe afford to go part time 4 days which could make it easier. I'm 4 days. It's hard and costs a lot in salary. I don't know if you can move to another firm as a partner.

I think you need to take control. I made the same calculation as you that going elsewhere was going to set back my career and I'd be better staying where I was but that was in the cast iron certainty that I was up for it again next year (still depending on me passing all the interviews). You need to get some iron clad guarantees that you will be promoted next year. I suspect they could be keeping you motivated with promotion and as each year goes by your junior team gets better placed to cope if you do leave.

I’m a partner in a large regional firm, prior to which I was a senior associate at a silver circle firm. I earn well, though undoubtedly far less than you will currently be on. I am well supported, have great colleagues and the hours target is 1400.

Can you afford to be paid less? Is partnership what’s important to you, or is money more important? These questions determine your choice. Someone in your position could get partnership almost anywhere below US level, if that’s what’s important.

In my team we have a 3 PQE associate who left a US firm taking a £100k pay cut to come to us. She just couldn’t hack the “culture” of the US firm any more. She’s outstanding. But with kids and a mortgage you may not feel able to take a massive pay cut without other lifestyle changes such as moving house.

Money is nice but it’s not everything, not by a long chalk. I leave the office at 4pm 2-3 times a week to pick my kid up from school, and make up the time in the evening. I’m very aware that there are 3-4 PQE associates at US firms earning more than I do, and I don’t envy them or regret my choice. I have a nice life.

Also, at my firm we are looking for a new litigation partner currently. DM me if this might be of interest.

I left a career at a top tier City firm 10 years ago now. Moved out of London.

Zero regrets and wouldn’t go back for any money.

My friends who stayed earn many times more than me but I don’t envy them one bit.

I have to be more careful with money - my family holiday this half term was Wales not somewhere exotic. But it was Wales without my laptop/phone.

Also I’m finding my DC need me much more not less as she gets older (currently 7 and going through a tough spell after being an easy baby / toddler)

please rule out having a third child. That is an utterly bonkers idea

I have waited until the @BurningOutt responded to your comment before posting. I found it harsh and bizarre to say something like that to anyone never mind one who had experienced such a devastating loss and in such an emotionally vulnerable place.

Often in life we weigh up lots of things and our emotional values, needs and wants are arguably more important than money and careers. I have had a senior career in a global position with a big corporation. I had 3 under 3 at one point and it was hectic - however I had always wanted a fourth and that itch didn’t go away for years so we agreed to see what happened in a specific short 6 month window when I was 38 and bingo first month no 4 5 years after the first lot. She has been the light of all our lives and I got so much from motherhood ‘second’ time around as I knew what was important and what wasn’t.

IME it was the best thing we ever did. The career kept cracking on and Mat leave, working parents legislation etc was much better that when I had my first three.

Have it all @BurningOutt ❤️❤️❤️

I’m glad to hear my comments were useful.

if you want a third child you want a third child. That’s reality. So try for one!

by the time you are back from mat leave they will have been forced to reorganise the department. It might be harder to make partner. But if you can stay gainfully employed there you’re having a great life.

win win!

Haven’t read all the replies, OP - but your post made me think about a close friend of mine. Her husband is a lawyer, earns a packet. They are also in London, and bluntly - there’s no way they could get off the treadmill of earnings at this stage (big mortgage, teens at private school).

Many would think they have an enviable lifestyle - and they do! - but things are pretty broken. He works around the clock, hardly sees the kids, she handles everything on the domestic front and gets very resentful because of it. It’s not really a functional marriage or a particularly happy house.

I’m not saying this is your setup at all - but the point is, we have one life to live (it’s that old platitude of ‘no-one lies on their deathbed wishing they’d spent more time at the office’) and as time goes on and kids grow up, it becomes harder and harder to make a change. Good luck OP x

I'm a lawyer. Ex American city firm. I only did it for about 3 years though as I hated the lack of control over my own time. And it was a toxic culture. I developed anxiety as a result. Went in house for a 50% pay cut. I honestly can't explain how different the two lifestyles are (well I could explain but it would take a while lol). The benefits were immeasurable.

One of the big things for me when I was in PP was looking around at the senior lawyers in my team and I just thought "I don't want to be 50 and still in your position. I don't want the life you have." The life being being a slave to your job and truly believing it to be important and worth giving up your actual life for. You know, the life with your kids and mates and hobbies in it.

If you want to be doing this job for the next 20 years and feel motivated and energised by that prospect then don't give it up now.

If you don't want to do it in 5/10/20 years then give up now. Partnership is not a "prize" to anyone other than the other lawyers in your firm. No-one in the real world cares. And your prospects of an in house job (if that's what you want to do) won't be improved by being partner.

My honest advice. Quit. Life is short. Ridiculously so. Your children are only children for a few short years. You are only young-ish for a few more years. Leave and get a job that gives you more freedom. These firms sell you a dream that isn't real. There is no end goal. Just more and more work to make more and more money. Then retirement and you're soon forgotten.

Give up. Get a new job. Have a third baby. Get a hobby. Make plans during the week. Make plans for the weekend and know you can keep them. There's a better life out there truly!