If you have 3DC or more how do you manage the childcare?

[clutteredup]

I have a DD 15 mo, DD1 starts school in September and DS is already at school. If I go back to work I'd need a CM for before and after school and obviously full time care for DD2.
I have just done the sums and whichever way you look at it I can't earn enough to pay for the childcare. i reckon after tax and travel I would bring home about £900 to begin with, although that ,hopefully would increase with time.
But by my calculations that isn't enough to cover childcare.
I don't know if we'd be entitled to tax credits as DH earns over the limit. It just seems so daft that it would cost more to look after the DC than I would get paid.
Just want to know how anyone else manages it.

im at work now which is a clue as to how we manage - we both work five days but me tues-sat and DH mon-fri so only have to pay for childcare four days for DS.
if you are a teacher is there sthing you could do out of working hours - guessing you are maybe a teacher as you mention headteacher? eg could you do marking from home which could be done when dcs in bed (i have a teacher friend who does this) or private tutoring in evenings? doesnt bring in huge sums but if you dont have to pay childcare it is 'free' extra money iykwim and keeps your hand in.
what i tell myself when i see what scraps are left of my salary every month after paying mortgage and nanny (yes i know lux option, but nursery fees for two dcs almost as much around our way) is that im not working for the money now but for the money later - ie keeping a hand in professionally so that i maintain earning potential for later in life when childcare bill is hopefully lower thanks to school etc. and also im preserving our options, eg if dh lost his job we wouldnt be totally stuffed (his industry is less secure than mine so i'd be worried about this if i was sahm). but you're right its not easy and no wonder so many people give up when they get to 2 or even 3 dcs.

Just a question for those of you who work term time only: I can understnad your employer agreeing to let you have half term off but do they really agree to letting you have the entire summer holiday off too?

I had 3 under 5. Went back to work part-time but could only do it because dh worked shifts and we had a degree of 'swing-door' parenting going on with my mum filling in the gaps and helping out during the school holidays. No tax credits then either.

TBH without her I wouldn't have been able to have number 3 - or carry on working for so long after she (dd) was diagnosed with major health problems. In the end I had to give it up for a while as it was too stressful holding it all together.

Nursejo I know how vouchers work we are lucky recipients my point was that the amount of my childcare it covered when I had 3 fulltimers was literally like pissing in the wind.
I still think the best option if this gov want Mothers to go back to work is to make childcare tax deductable.
clutteredup have you thought of posing a specific question like this aimed at teachers (I am guessing you are one too!) I have seen some post on here as to how they do it.

We have some term time only workers and yes they do get the whole summer off, as a optio it is only available to very few people and it does cause quite a bit of resentment because of course lots of other people have children and lots of other people want Christmas off.

Hi branflake;- Yes they do agree to letting you have all the summer holidays off and every school holiday in fact! the law states that you are within your rights to apply for whatever flexible arrangements work for YOU, not the employer. they have to have sound business reasons why you can't work the hours that suit you. It is a managers/employers responsability to sort out cover while you are off/ come in late etc. So, in short, if you work on a reception desk serving the public then they would be within their rights to say 'no', but only if you were the only person capable of doing it. but, if someone else can do your job until you come into work or come back to work (after school hols) then whats the problem. Look on the DTI website and it tells you exactly how to apply, and how to put a case together. It's really not complicated or hard to do, for you or the employer. It just means we ALL have to think out of the box!

With regards to other people feeling resentful because they have children and would like to have the time off and peak times (school hols for example), It's tough! they should put in for it in advance, we all know when xmas is, summer hols, easter etc. Part of the fact that I no longer work the same hours as them, also means I no longer get the same pay as them as my pay is now pro- rata to 39 weeks instead of 52 weeks. So its not like i'm getting it ALL, money and time off!

well, I also have 3dc. I try to think ahead when all 3dc are at school. Hopefully childcare will be less, finally. Also, difficult to be out of work for too long as would be impossible to go back to mu field of expertise

But milkybars some people want flexible working for personal reasons some people care for old people, some just fancy spending christmas with a dying relative they can't all put in for flexible working. It's often not that people want to go away in school holidays but some other reason (I know pre kids I would generally rather eat cat food than go away in school holidays-still feel like that sometimes post kids)
Why should all flexible workers have Christmas off?
I simply pointed out it can lead to resentment.

Think outside the box a bit

I have 2 preschool dcs and I work 3 days a week as a teacher. My salary covers childcare and leaves a bit over. Dcs go to a nursery, there is a 10% discount for siblings, my eldest qualifies for part nursery funding from the govt, and a lot of employers offer the child voucher scheme which is taken off our salaries which both dh and I do, which saves about £1200 a year.

We would be significantly better off if I worked f/t but I'm a better mum and teacher for being p/t.

If there's to be a third litteHeated it would have to be when the other two are in school. Paying for 3 lots of childcare would mean I was paying the school to work, who are already taking the with how they calculate my pay.

Thanks Heated you have shown me that it is possible but it isn't easy with more than 2 dc. What area do you live in as childcare costs do change according to area - they seem quite pricey where i am in the South west although I imagine they are a lot more in places like London.
i was inrerested to hear what woodstock said about the nanny option - I'm guessing here that you don't pay a nanny more for more children - so is there a point at whic a nanny becomes a more financially viable option. the au pair option would be cheaper but we would have to rearrange children to fit one in and I'm not sure about having someone else actually living in my house. An interesting one really as I expect outside childcare wouldn't necessarily start till 7 or 8 and most seem to finish at 6 so it depends on hours travelling and overtime. still its interesting.
I am a qualified teacher but I often wonder what it would be like if I did something else that paid a bit more but I think its clear that if i did the childcare would remove any of the extra income and the hours would be longer an the childcare expensive and difficult in the holidays.
I guess i have to accept I'm never going to be really rich - DH laughed when i said i wanted to get a high powered job. I'm not that unintelligent!

Oh yes woodstock I do do a bit of tutoring, after the DC are in bed so it is free money - its just its all dries up now the exams have started and there will be nothing till Setpember at the earliest.
And i don't think I'd get away with doing a cleaning job as my own house is always in a state I think DH would (reasonably) have something to say about that!!

seems so crazy that two of you could childmind each others kids and be better off!

the worlds gone mad imo!

Clutterdup, my nursery charges £34 a day per child but as I said that is offset by child care vouchers taken off our salaries, 3-4yr govt nursery funding and 10% sibling discount.

When ds starts school, he will have to have before and after school care with a CM. This will cost £3.50 an hour or £10.50 a day which is a fair drop in childcare expense. Being a teacher obviously my dcs are with me in the holidays. Some CMs don't charge over the holidays since then they take children who only need summer holiday care, or otherwise CMs generally charge half fees.

Once my youngest is 3, I could just afford get pg with our third but being this poor has only been a temporary measure in my eyes not a permanent state of affairs! And with our mortagage and bills rising, it looks like having no 3 could put a too big strain on us financially although part of me thinks just close eyes, get pg, we'll cope!

I am getting very at some of the misconceptions on this thread, particularly skiwear's comment about civil servants. As a civil servant our department first started childcare vouchers November 2007. Most outside employers offered them long before that. While they are a help they only cover £243 a month and affect your pension and future maternity pay rights.

When I had DC4 I left work (thankfully) to be a SAHM. Within a few weeks of leaving our car broke down. DH's pay barely covered the mortgage and bills so we were already struggling- this was just impossible. No repair meant DH couldn't get to work so back I went

He worked nights and I worked afternoons and weekends (2 jobs, then 3). I came in as he went out and we sort of passed on the stairs. We did that for years. We were lucky that FIL retired when DC4 was 2 years old because it meant he could step into the breach when we couldn't quite overlap. DC4 spent more time with grandad than me

I swapped my 2 jobs for one fulltime when they were 12, 10, 8 and 6. The summer holidays were a nightmare for many years- no tax credits or flexible working when they were small, and we couldn't afford paid childcare. DH took 2 weeks leave, I took a different 2 weeks leave, grandma had them for another week and the other week was ad hoc.

ATM I'm working 3 days a week but will have to go back to FT in July. DD's nursery is £30 a day so for working an extra 2 days a week I will be better off by about £160 a month. Doesn't seem worth it really.

On paper we are earning a fair bit now between us but we've never got enough to pay the bills and we don't have a flash lifestyle. If diesel goes up much more DH will be paying to go to work, so it will be time to think again

I'd be interested to know what effect childcare vouchers have on pension etc? I wasn't given any info on that and both dp & I use them for our two dc's.

I haven't yet looked into whether it's worth my returning to work after dt's are born in Sept (fingers crossed). I work 3 days a week currently but my mum has both boys 1 day of that. DS1 will be in school from Sept but even with ds2's funding kicking a few months after maternity leave over, I don't know if it's viable with after-school club, half term cover etc. Like others on here, I work in an industry that's fast moving and not sure if I would ever catch up again. Hard enough after 9 months maternity leave last time.

From many other threads on here, it seems that very few jobs suit school hours (SALT etc) and many people set up in business. That's something I was thinking hard about before I found out that dc3 was dc4 too! Have you considered that, clutteredup, could that be an option?

The way we do it, with 2 kids and no help from family, is I work on a Sunday, from 10 til 4 - this brings in approx 200 -250 a month, plus I also volunteer to cover for bank holidays, I have been with my employer for 5 years now. I feel very lucky to have the best of both worlds - although it is frustrating to be limited to just Sundays - basically because of the nature of my husband's job he is on call nearly all the time. My employer has always been extremely understanding of this and has given me six months unpaid leave when dh was abroad. I also resent not seeing the children on Sundays, but then at least I am able to pick them up from school and spend lots of time doing fun stuff with dd (3). Cannot help but feel green over those families with grandparents, sisters etc queueing up to give free childcare and support - we get nowt - not even when they were babies and husband abroad.

IKWYM Freckly - we get nowt either from my family. I couldn't even get my dad to babysit when I gave bith to No 3

I was very and the time and of my friend, who had the same due date and her Dad flew over from Italy to help her. Mine wouldn't even drive 3 miles to help us out

Sorry, I digress ...

Some of my friends have gone back to work, then, probably because of length of time with same employer, managed to gently negotiate more child-friendly hours/days - eg finish 2.30pm every day for school pick-ups, or do a 4 day week in 3 long days, thus leaving 2 chidcare expense free days. They reckon they couldn't have got a new job on this basis, but it was worth going back to work full-time for a bit then asking for changed hours - govt says emplyer has to consider it.
Another has deal with her husband - He gets up early goes to work early and leaves early, she does opposite end of day - so school dropoffs and pickups are all covered. They also found a nursery that charges lower rate depending on time you pcik up and drop off - it works for them.
I teach, so school hols generally OK - introduction of childcare vouchers from both our employers, plus SureStart grant when child turns 3, were the 2 big things that made it possible for us.

we work opposite each other. i work evenings, dh works days. he reently made a flex working request and got it. so now works 7-3. my hours are 3/5-12.

when we slightly overlap twice a week we use a nursery. 2 afternoons works out as £175 a dc no.2 planned for next year when dc1 will be 3 therefore the nursery will be free. if we have another i'll plan a 3 year gap again. the nursery is as much for my own sanity as i obviously don't get evening 'chill' time.

school pick ups are no problem with our hours, as are school holidays/plays/sickness etc. when the time comes. works really well. we both have quite good jobs and don't have to pay much for childcare.

We have 3 DCs. DH works 9-5, I do 2 days in the office and 2 from home. We have a nanny and my parents can step in too (although they live abroad so they need plenty of notice and they do it for weeks at a time rather than the odd day). I've done all sorts of P/T and F/T combinations over the years. We muddle through.

Yes we have 3 year gap between each of our 3 DC's precisely because that is the only way we could afford childcae - by waiting for one to be school age before producing again

Negotiating flexi hours with a new employer is tricky. You can either wait until you have the job offer before youmention it (they won't be able to withdraw offe as that would be blatant discrimination) or you could join on full time and then ask after six months or so, once you have proved yourself

DH and I both work f/t but very flexible hours - doing flexible hours doesn't have to mean reducing your hours.

You can work from home one day a week.

Or work a 9 day fortnight.

Or work four long day and have a day a week off etc etc

I do 3 long days and a few hours at home (spread over two days). DH does a 39 hourweek, comressed into 4 days, including Saturday.

Its easier if your job doesn't involve much ustomer contact as it allows you to be more flexble

customer

Come on Evanhope you're so cross I can't understand what you are saying. Trying to say that the majority of civil servants don't work under terms and conditions that are significantly better then the rest of us is a bit like teachers protesting that they don't get 20 weeks holidays a year they only get 19. (wildly inaccurate figures so as not to offend any teachers) It might be technically accurate that your dept. didn't start vouchers until 2007 but I gather it has been 'normal' for civil servants to have their job help open for them for 5 years after having a child? Either that or I unwittingly know some really key people in the running of the country!

It's interesting that for some people the introduction of vouchers/NEG made a real difference for me (London) the sums involved are such a tiny proportion of my childcare costs that it makes very little difference. Maybe the voucher should be more if childcare within M25 maybe it should be eg upto 10% of your costs?

Accessorizequeen the vouchers have the effect of reducing your salary by x amount, so for benefits calculated according to salary they will also be reduced proportionally eg suppose you earn £1,000 a month you take a voucher of £250 therefore your salary is £750 a month. If you were to get 90% of you salary as amternity pay for the first month you would only get £675 (90% of £750) rather than £900 (90% of £1,000) I think that's how it works. Here you are advised to stop the vouchers before your qualifying week to avoid that. (I have rounded figures to make the maths easy )

Clutteredup what's interesting for me is that lots of people ?the majority make it work by working flexibly which makes it a shame that is not really open to us.

Maybe the gov is right to extend flexible working and maybe companies are right to be so reluctant to allow them to do so?!!!

So does no one except me think allowing people to pay their childcare off their pre-tax salary would be good?

We had childminder before DC at school.

DH and I both do four days so CM only needed 3 days/week (we have different day off obv).

This reduced bill massively. Gap is 2 yrs and 22mo so by time I went back to work after DS2, DS1 was at school.

We are lucky enough to have flexible option so DC are picked up and dropped off by us (it does have knock-on of never all being home toegther till about 7pm or after 7am but there you go).

clutteredup I guess some of the people who go back to work earn ££££.

I agree if you are talking nursery etc it's difficult. A lot of peopel I know who work have grandparents to help/work wierd shifts (eg evenings) or do the kind of juggle we do. I realise that these are not options for many people.

nanny costs clutteredup - depends where you are but in london anything from £8-£10 an hour, goes up depending on experience and qualifications, but plus tax and NI on top (add about 40pc roughly). we have an experienced nanny and it works out about £540 a week for us for four days, nursery for three round us would be over £600 (and more as i'd constantly be being fined for being late...) so its not vastly cheaper but once you get to three it is roughly equivalent and a hell of a lot easier
its less outside london i think but other people will know about that. younger less experienced nannies are cheaper but you might think twice about putting three children with someone for whom it's a first job! nanny sharing rates cheaper (about £11 an hour betwen the two parents) but with three dcs you cant realy share (nannies are not supposed to look after more than three or legally they become a childminder and should be registered, tho some will)