Taking holiday when on long term sick leave

[BananaWaving]

From what I have seen online, apparently annual leave still accrues even when on sick leave.

It seems a bit cheeky, but has anyone taken annual leave when they are on long term sick leave so that they get full pay for that time instead of the reduced sick pay amount?

Also, has anyone who works in HR come across this being done?

Thanks.

I can’t deal with the stress of all this.

It’s a bit of a piss take though isn’t it?

Your company are very unlikely to pay you sick leave indefinitely. It will cost them in a couple of ways -the cost of annual leave plus pension , NI, the cost of the policy etc and more importantly they may feel they are both short staffed but unable to commit to a new permanent member of staff while they don't know if and when you will return.

After a period of time they can ask for occupational health to assess if you are ready to work again and end your contract if you are not. My employer that is done at the 1 year of sick leave point.

To answer your question, some employers encourage annual leave during sick leave to top up employees pay (when paid SSP runs out) and also to stop it building up and extending the period of absence after they should be returning. Like all annual leave it has to be agreed with your employer though.

I wouldn't ask for a routine 4-5 weeks of annual leave each year now as that will imply an intention to not come back and may accelerate any decisions to terminate your contract.

If it is relevant, I tend to work for smaller companies though.

What is, asking for my contractual terms to be honoured? Or being too sick to work?

Better to bite the bullet and get some legal advice based on your specific policy, then you can plan going forward. Forewarned is forearmed!

The link to up to retirement, is that more the policy covers you for an illness kicking in right up to retirement age? Otherwise paying indefinitely seems bonkers and surely is recouped somewhere through v high premiums because that's a huuuuuge potential cost

Yes, that’s true but it feels overwhelming

Well if your doctor says you can never work again then that’s it for now.
When able, do get legal advice.
all the very best to you x

I'm sorry that you're so unwell, and I don't think it's taking the piss to claim whatever you're entitled to. Being ill is stressful enough without having to worry about money on top.

However, I'm concerned that you may be making assumptions about your entitlements which may or may not be correct - particularly with regard to the question of whether you can be dismissed. Please seek legal advice...is it possible that your home insurance policy offers access to this?

Thank you x

I strongly recommend you speak to your employer so you don't get surprised with being let go - if you cannot work they may be able to claim money as insurance but they may still be letting you go as far as holiday entitlement ... or you could receive a one off final payment. Even generous schemes generally stop after 1-2 years

@BananaWaving is there a family member who could assist? If you have the paperwork then they could perhaps speak to a solicitor on your behalf. It is definitely better to have the information ahead of time so you are mentally and financially prepared.

There isn't enough information for most people to make a judgement on the continuing payments. Your age, diagnosis, pension scheme, company policies etc are all highly relevant and not possible for you to share here. I would however concur, with other posters, that paying out indefinitely for many, many years isn't common practice.

From what I understand it's illegal to use holiday pay to disguise sick pay. I used to manage a call centre and staff would often ask to take holiday because they felt unwell. hR said no because you have to report accurately to HMRC on a monthly basis via payroll. I have been on holiday when signed off sick for over a year, but I was on full pay and just notified them I was out of the country for a few weeks but it was still paid sick. When I left eventually the accrued holiday was paid as part of the settlement offering.

I work in HR. I would suggest legal advice based on your specific medical situation and policy wording as it’s impossible to comment on it accurately.

"So the clause that says the policy covers to state retirement age is pretty pointless if they can just sack me anyway"

No
It's not pointless, it's there to give an end date. It doesn't mean that they have to keep claiming on the insurance until then. I'd imagine you'll be ill health retired within a couple of years unless you're near state retirement age now

I've just looked at my policy and there is a clause for situations where you are unable to return to work, they are allowed to offer a one off settlement following such a diagnosis. This clause kicks in automatically after 2 continuous years off sick or where a consultant states that return isn't possible, if under 2 years they make a payment equal to 2 years. There's a retirement age provision too, if you hit that during the 2 years it stops.

Every policy is different so find a solicitor experienced in employment law

Why don’t you contact Citizens Advice, OP

By the way, have you applied for PIP?

I work in HR and have experience with long term PHI up to pension age. A lot of advice and responses so far have been based on not having a PHI available. The persons contract was not terminated.. until they tried to come back to work 25 years after first being sick, which coincidentally was about 6 weeks before they reached retirement age and the benefit would end. At the end of this time we paid them 2 years worth of holiday pay as per advise from our lawyers….. but it is very dependent on your contract and the wording of the policy. You could try speaking with ACAS for some advice or find an employment lawyer.

Thank you @Jasper2021 , that is really helpful. I tried ACAS but they said they couldn’t help. I will see about finding an employment lawyer

Unless your employer is a real outlier or your case is exceptional then I doubt very much whether it works like that because a) it will drive your employer's insurance costs up and up and b) they'll end up with dozens or hundreds of 'employees' like you, on permanent sick leave till retirement and the insurer will refuse them cover. Any scheme that incentivises staff to go sick and stay sick (and take the piss by going on holiday too) will very quickly be shut down.

There may be cases where, say, someone not far off retirement was injured or became ill as a result of their work where the employer might suck the cost up if it's cheaper than settling with a lump sum. Is that your situation? Otherwise you need to prepare for being managed out if you don't intend to go back. I have known people living with cancer or MS who have been managed out legally. But then neither of them expected to be paid long-term for work they couldn't do.

Blimey, that’s really unkind. I highly doubt that a lot of people would choose to go off long term sick for 60% of their salary and even if they did they wouldn’t get a medical expert to give an appropriate prognosis for the insurance to kick in.
Also, I am not saying I would go on holiday, I am asking about claiming holiday pay. That’s quite different.

Unfortunately I've worked with a handful of people who have gamed any loophole they could to get paid for being off for as long as they could. Often returning to work when they specified period was coming to a close, only to go off again once they reached the right qualifying threshold etc.

There will always be some who take advantage and companies have to ensure they don't have loopholes to be exploited.

Debilitating illness is awful and can lead to financial stress - definitely get advice with your specific contract and policy in hand.

I took a holiday towards the end of my cancer treatment - all my treatment was over.

I wouldn’t say that was taking the piss

No, it isn’t. Otherwise the UK’s biggest employer is breaking the law every day.