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Original poster

Taking holiday when on long term sick leave

191 replies

BananaWaving · 08/02/2024 00:50

From what I have seen online, apparently annual leave still accrues even when on sick leave.

It seems a bit cheeky, but has anyone taken annual leave when they are on long term sick leave so that they get full pay for that time instead of the reduced sick pay amount?

Also, has anyone who works in HR come across this being done?

Thanks.

OP posts:
OneMoreTime23 · 08/02/2024 08:39

20+ years as senior HR professional.

This happens all the time.

Income protection doesn’t affect the legal entitlement to holiday pay.

Original poster
BananaWaving · 08/02/2024 08:40

Viviennemary · 08/02/2024 08:36

I've never heard of indefinite sick leave until retirement age. You need to get advice as to exactly what your entitlement is and if it can be terminated. Without studying your company policy and the terms of the insurance cover I think it would be difficult for somebody to advise you on this.

Edited
Show quote history

Sorry, I meant that the accrual
of holiday when on sick leave is a legal entitlement. I also thought that the income protection policy was until retirement age and HR have confirmed that, although they haven’t said they won’t sack me for being sick!

OP posts:
Original poster
BananaWaving · 08/02/2024 08:42

OneMoreTime23 · 08/02/2024 08:39

20+ years as senior HR professional.

This happens all the time.

Income protection doesn’t affect the legal entitlement to holiday pay.

Thank you @OneMoreTime23
So, HR won’t think I am taking the piss by requesting this (It is a multi national company)

OP posts:
MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 08/02/2024 08:44

I don't know much about PHI, but I would be astonished if any company would carry on paying someone on sick leave for years, even if they have an insurance policy to cover it. What about pension and employer NI contributions, are they still paying those?

elliejjtiny · 08/02/2024 08:45

When dh was off sick long term he was on SSP for 6 months and then his work sacked him. He then got paid full pay for however much annual leave he had left.

OneMoreTime23 · 08/02/2024 08:46

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 08/02/2024 08:44

I don't know much about PHI, but I would be astonished if any company would carry on paying someone on sick leave for years, even if they have an insurance policy to cover it. What about pension and employer NI contributions, are they still paying those?

It is problematic to leave someone languishing on PHI for years and years.

Foxblue · 08/02/2024 08:46

That's because they can sack you for for being sick - no company is obliged to keep you on the books forever even if they do have income protection, as you would count within headcounts etc, which has an impact on finances, strategy etc - it's not as straightforward as 'they get X amount which they then pass to me'
I'm sorry that your health has deteriorated, that must be really hard.
Are you in the UK?

Original poster
BananaWaving · 08/02/2024 08:47

elliejjtiny · 08/02/2024 08:45

When dh was off sick long term he was on SSP for 6 months and then his work sacked him. He then got paid full pay for however much annual leave he had left.

That’s terrible @elliejjtiny I thought there would be disability laws to protect against that. Hope your DH is doing Ok now. Was it a big company?

OP posts:
Original poster
BananaWaving · 08/02/2024 08:49

Foxblue · 08/02/2024 08:46

That's because they can sack you for for being sick - no company is obliged to keep you on the books forever even if they do have income protection, as you would count within headcounts etc, which has an impact on finances, strategy etc - it's not as straightforward as 'they get X amount which they then pass to me'
I'm sorry that your health has deteriorated, that must be really hard.
Are you in the UK?

Thanks @Foxblue
It is really stressful trying to work this all out when not well. I am in the UK

OP posts:
gerteddy · 08/02/2024 08:49

We have a really strange case where someone was diagnosed terminally ill. Someone in HR put them on some sort of lifetime salary payout I think because they felt sorry for them and thinking it wouldn't be for long. However many, many years later he's still alive and everyone always wonders what is going on with this one. At the end of the financial year he automatically gets paid any holidays accrued.

I would imagine your employer still needs to pay some NI and pension payments on your behalf every year. Does the up to retirement age on the w not just mean that they will pay so long as ur not beyond retirement age, rather than we will pay from age 40 (for example) to retirement age. I don't imagine any insurance policy is that gd!

Your employer may also have some rules around filling the role maybe they can't do it permanently as you're still employed and technically could come back from sick leave.

I would only ask after the end of the financial year if you haven't automatically been paid the accrued holidays.

Original poster
BananaWaving · 08/02/2024 08:50

OneMoreTime23 · 08/02/2024 08:46

It is problematic to leave someone languishing on PHI for years and years.

Show quote history

So the clause that says the policy covers to state retirement age is pretty pointless if they can just sack me anyway

OP posts:
Yesnosorryplease · 08/02/2024 08:52

BananaWaving · 08/02/2024 08:50

So the clause that says the policy covers to state retirement age is pretty pointless if they can just sack me anyway

Show quote history

Yes

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 08/02/2024 08:53

BananaWaving · 08/02/2024 08:50

So the clause that says the policy covers to state retirement age is pretty pointless if they can just sack me anyway

Show quote history

I presume that the clause about retirement age relates primarily to people who get sick shortly before retirement age, so that the payments terminate when they hit that age. I doubt that it pays out for years and years.

3luckystars · 08/02/2024 08:53

I don’t think you can do this. It all just accrues and when your sick leave ends then you can use your annual leave then once you return to work.

If you are never going back to work, are you going to have a meeting with them to tell them this.?I’m very sorry you are unwell.

harriethoyle · 08/02/2024 08:55

BananaWaving · 08/02/2024 08:50

So the clause that says the policy covers to state retirement age is pretty pointless if they can just sack me anyway

Show quote history

Not really. the lack of an arbitrary cut off point of eg 2 years, means if you triggered PHI 2.5 years before retirement you'd probably just be allowed to coast through to then.

Don't think because you're on PHI, you're bullet proof. You're not.

Musicaltheatremum · 08/02/2024 08:56

My husband couldn't work for 12 years as he had a brain tumour. He was a lawyer. His firm had a PHI policy. When he left the policy continued to pay out to him until he was 50 when he died but it would have continued to pay until aged 60. It must depend on the terms of the policy the employer used. As a lawyer my husband was a partner and self employed so the payments for the policy were made from his income to the insurance company.

Original poster
BananaWaving · 08/02/2024 08:57

3luckystars · 08/02/2024 08:53

I don’t think you can do this. It all just accrues and when your sick leave ends then you can use your annual leave then once you return to work.

If you are never going back to work, are you going to have a meeting with them to tell them this.?I’m very sorry you are unwell.

i don’t know that I definitely will never go back to work but my consultant has said I am not able to work again.

OP posts:
3luckystars · 08/02/2024 08:58

I’m sorry to hear that.

OneMoreTime23 · 08/02/2024 08:59

3luckystars · 08/02/2024 08:53

I don’t think you can do this. It all just accrues and when your sick leave ends then you can use your annual leave then once you return to work.

If you are never going back to work, are you going to have a meeting with them to tell them this.?I’m very sorry you are unwell.

They won’t want to have years and years worth of annual leave to cover at the end. Perfectly possible (and more practical) to pay as they go.

FiftynFooked · 08/02/2024 08:59

OP most people on here won't understand the legalities behind a PHI policy. You can't be dismissed or managed out once you're in receipt of benefits under such a policy. It can lead to a huge breach of contract claim.

As far as holiday is concerned, this depends on the wording of the policy. Some insurers factor in the cost of holiday into the payments they make to the employer. Whilst there is no legal obligation for them to pass this on it is generally good practice to do so. As a minimum, 4 weeks of your holiday will continue to accrue but if you don't take it or get paid in lieu of the holiday then it will eventually be lost.

However if you are paid in lieu of your holiday it is likely to be paid at your PHI rate because the effect of the policy basically means that your pay rate changes.

Hope this is of help, but if you're still unsure I would get hold of a copy of the policy and take some proper legal advice. Mumsnet is great for many things but not legal advice! Wink

LIZS · 08/02/2024 08:59

Would it not be better to negotiate ending the job due to long term sickness if you are unable to ever return. They cannot recruit to fill your position while you are in limbo but would pay out accrued leave and possibly pension contributions, Most organisations have a trigger point for termination, the policy you mention is for their benefit more than yours as it limits their financial loss. You can use al instead but normally when sick leave is ending , to mitigate loss of earnings when sick pay ends and support a phased return.

OneMoreTime23 · 08/02/2024 09:00

BananaWaving · 08/02/2024 08:57

i don’t know that I definitely will never go back to work but my consultant has said I am not able to work again.

Show quote history

They should be looking at medical retirement then.

3luckystars · 08/02/2024 09:01

If they know this information!

Original poster
BananaWaving · 08/02/2024 09:03

FiftynFooked · 08/02/2024 08:59

OP most people on here won't understand the legalities behind a PHI policy. You can't be dismissed or managed out once you're in receipt of benefits under such a policy. It can lead to a huge breach of contract claim.

As far as holiday is concerned, this depends on the wording of the policy. Some insurers factor in the cost of holiday into the payments they make to the employer. Whilst there is no legal obligation for them to pass this on it is generally good practice to do so. As a minimum, 4 weeks of your holiday will continue to accrue but if you don't take it or get paid in lieu of the holiday then it will eventually be lost.

However if you are paid in lieu of your holiday it is likely to be paid at your PHI rate because the effect of the policy basically means that your pay rate changes.

Hope this is of help, but if you're still unsure I would get hold of a copy of the policy and take some proper legal advice. Mumsnet is great for many things but not legal advice! Wink

Thank you so much @FiftynFooked That ties in more with what I have read online. There are some really inaccurate
opinions masquerading as facts on this thread 😀

OP posts:
harriethoyle · 08/02/2024 09:05

FiftynFooked · 08/02/2024 08:59

OP most people on here won't understand the legalities behind a PHI policy. You can't be dismissed or managed out once you're in receipt of benefits under such a policy. It can lead to a huge breach of contract claim.

As far as holiday is concerned, this depends on the wording of the policy. Some insurers factor in the cost of holiday into the payments they make to the employer. Whilst there is no legal obligation for them to pass this on it is generally good practice to do so. As a minimum, 4 weeks of your holiday will continue to accrue but if you don't take it or get paid in lieu of the holiday then it will eventually be lost.

However if you are paid in lieu of your holiday it is likely to be paid at your PHI rate because the effect of the policy basically means that your pay rate changes.

Hope this is of help, but if you're still unsure I would get hold of a copy of the policy and take some proper legal advice. Mumsnet is great for many things but not legal advice! Wink

As an ex-employment lawyer, I can say that is not accurate.

Get some legal advice @BananaWaving it's all entirely dependent on your policy wording.

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