Threatened with disciplinary after 3 absences

[Acecarad]

I moved to UK to work in NHS 6 months ago. I had an absences of 1 day for diarrhoea and vomiting. Two months later, I got an insect bite in my neck, with caused an allergy, making my neck and throat sell up where I could only take fluids and no solid food. It was very painful and needed steroids to get rud of it. Now I have gotten bronchitis after a cold. I stayed in work and some colleagues and patients were telling me I shouldn't be there as I was coughing so much but my manager threatened disciplinary proceedings if I took another day sick. I have been to thr GP 3 times for different medications, steroids, antibiotics, inhalers to stop the coughing, but it is stll so bad I'm vomiting periodically with it. I have also lost the hearing on one side due to the virus. I haven't been sleeping because of all this snd now feel really exhausted. I emailed ma ager this morning and said I would be absent today, but if the inhalers I was given worked I would be I tomorrow. My manger emailed back to Sat she was sorry I was sock but as I had 3 absences within a year, she had to initiate disciplinary proceeding. I have never been the subject of disciplinary proceedings before. I am thinking of just handing in my notice and goigsck to Ireland. One colleague also said I should toughen up about sickness and just get on with it

I'm also not in the UK and I'm really shocked that this is a norm. What an awful policy.

It's very much a step one of a process. Good managers will use it as an opportunity to check everything is OK with their employees and see if they need any support. I've picked up that employees need adjustments that they hadn't thought to ask for, and I've also identified staff in abusive relationships.

Although I follow the process, the only people I give a hard time to are the pisstakers.

Probably worth pointing out to anyone who thinks a meeting with a line manager after 3 periods of sickness is harsh, that the NHS pay sick pay and many employers outside the public sector don't.

That is quite certainly not what I said. What I said very clearly is that the law determined that employers should not have the right to dismiss employees on a whim without evidence of good reason. Since that was the case employers only option was to introduce sickness absence processes which applied to everyone, because they do not have the luxury of deciding which sicknesses are genuine and which are not. Those rules apply to everyone, because that is the only way the law will accept them operating.

Nor did I say that people should not be off sick - you took a quote entirely out of context, the context being that sickness absence procedures are designed, in the first instances to improve attendance, and again, that is a requirement in legal practice.

I also said that paid sickness absence should be extended for those that do not have it - SSP encourages presentee-ism.

But there is a balance - in the OP's case assuming a senior clinical NHS role (I am not NHS) then they will have a very generous paid sick leave entitlement, and the managing sickness absence process would not get to termination until that period had been exhausted. In my own employers case, that is 12 months of sick pay. If someone cannot return to their employment in 12 months, no matter how good their reason, how long do you think their colleagues should cover their absence when there is no money to bring in replacements?

Fairness is not one sided. Three periods of sickness in six months would have triggered our policy too, but it is a very light touch with targets and support where required. I don't see anything at all inhumane or unfair about that.

It's a procedure and most employers have the same. If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about. "Disciplinary" is a bit heavy handed but at our firm I would have to hold and record a check in conversation with the employee.

I've had good employees with a run of bad luck or a longer duration condition, and I've had people constantly taking time off for "feeling a bit under the weather" who really do need keeping an eye on.

Interestingly, I just did a quick google of the policies at several NHS trusts, and their processes all read the same - 3 instances of sickness in any 12 months period is their trigger. So three in six months meets their definition of "a lot". What anyone here thinks is "a lot" is irrelevant.

It isn't what the NHS, as an employer, considers 'a lot' of time off at all. It's just a policy and a amount that then triggers a stage or period of assessment and finding out what support can be offered to the staff member. 3 instances could be any where from 3 random days off to 3 longer periods of sickness. NHS managers are then expected to use their common sense and discretion to deem what they think is the correct course of action from them and from OH.

Interestingly, many of us here do work within the NHS and are able to, and have, offered the OP relevant advice on her situation without trying to demean her illnesses or make her feel bad about being sick.

Interestingly, many of us here do work within the NHS and are able to, and have, offered the OP relevant advice on her situation without trying to demean her illnesses or make her feel bad about being sick.

Which I did not do, and I take offense at the suggestion that I did. "A lot" (in inverted commas) is a matter of opinion, and the employer thinks it is "a lot" because that is what trigger points are based on - what the employer thinks is more sickness absence than they are happy with. I have consistently said that this is a policy, andthat in the early stages it is designed to support and improve - not punish. But it seems like people love taking stuff out of context and reading what they want so they can simply have a go at someone else.

No one is saying they weren’t true- the meeting will be because that amount of sickness is not sustainable to the Business. They have a trigger point in their policy most likely and the OP has breached it.

I don’t work in the nhs but I am a manager and this is standard procedure in the uk. They aren’t threatening you, they are (as they must) flagging the very standard uk work practise. It’s not the number of sick days you have taken that have triggered this warning - it’s the number of separate absences. You could be off for a week, twice, and it would be fine - it’s because you’ve had three absences very close together. I previously worked in the us and our company there offered five paid sick days and then they took from your holiday. It’s different procedures in every country, and what you describe is standard for uk, nhs or not.

Ah, the gorgeous Bradford Scale. That nobody can trace to its origins (the University of Bradford has long since denied all knowledge).

This rolling 12 months three absences thing is why you are better off having one long absence of several weeks/months than, say, three migraines or three lots of D and V (where guidance is usually stay away for 48 hours after the event).

Yes, it's barking but yes, it's the standard in many organisations in the UK. Even after a global pandemic.

Funny how there are so many people off on long term sick in the NHS right now ( and that's just the organisation I work for).

It's interesting that the OP has quit and gone back to Ireland because it's so much better there.

In the Republic employees could go off sick, but it was only this year that they got any right to non-contractual sick pay. Employees are entitled to three days per annum in 2023, rising to five days in 2024, seven days in 2025, and a maximum of 10 days in 2026.

THe Health Service Executive offer is half what the NHS offer, and fixed term contract / part-time staff are entitled to less than half of that - which of course would be illegal in the UK. https://healthservice.hse.ie/staff/leave/sick-leave/

And to quote from their Managing Sickness Policy:
In order to ensure the consistent application of this Policy and Procedure across the HSE, “frequent” is defined as an absence from work by reason of illness on three occasions over a rolling three month period through illness. It is particularly important that managers address frequent short-term illness absence as it is often difficult to cover the employee’s work at short notice, and this can lead to a diminution in service delivery. The HSE wants to ensure that appropriate support and advice is provided to employees at all times. This procedure is designed to be supportive and aims, where possible, to help individuals achieve regular attendance at work. https://healthservice.hse.ie/documents/471/Managing_Attendance_policy_revised_2023.pdf

In other words, the OP would have hit their triggers in half the time of the NHS.

Yes, so much better in Ireland.

Actually, I worked for the HSE for 17 years, but not in the last 6, and I have never been subjected to the policy you referred to above there is no self certification in Ireland
Apart from the one day off for D and V. I would have had to go to my GP for steroids and antibiotics for the other two conditions and would have been issued with a sick cert for
however long she felt I needed. You don't have to get a sick cert in Ireland for first three days, but as I needed medication my GP would have given it anyway. There isn't a culture of presenteeism in work in Ireland which I think is good. They don't want people coughing and spluttering all over the place, or not being on top form when doing their job. The HSE sick pay is only 3 months full pay and 3 months half past and then the government pays you - it used your be only 204 per week whatever your wages, but the now government pay us linked to previous wages. In relation to private companies - only a small amount, usually smaller ones, did not give you sick pay, which is why the government stepped in and changed that recently, but the government would have still paid State sick pay. I doo think it is a better system in Irrland. I'm 58 in a few months. My career is winding down and I was hoping to go part time from my 58th birthday.
It's no way to live being afraid one will get sick and can lose one's job through a rough patch of illness. My life and my health is more important than any job. Luckily my children are reared and my mortgage oais so just working to keep my State pension going here or in Ireland as benefits are transferable between UK and Ireland

@Acecarad please don't feel like you have to keep justifying yourself to nutcases on here trying to trip you up. Look after yourself.

Thanks, Fieldsatbav, that's goid advice!

Obviously the Internet is lying and someone has posted false information, pretending to be the HSE, and the Republic of Ireland. I posted links to that false information.

I don't see the point of handing in your notice because you don't like the absence policy - it is completely standard and likely to be the same in any other job too

Hopefully it will be an informal meeting to discuss what ( if anything) can be done to support you.

Not sure I'd be off for the insect birth though ?

What is your job role?