Humiliated in meeting

[Hammili]

I don’t want this to be too outing. Essentially boss is a Jekyll and Hyde character, one minute overly friendly and enthusiastic the next minute he can be nasty, overbearing and demanding

Meeting yesterday with 4 people. He floated an idea (by floated I mean demanded it happens). I spoke up as to the barriers to stop this from happening (it’s the area I manage). He was incredibly rude, told me to stop talking, make it happen, I’m not interested in the issues and that I was being confrontational.

At that point I shut up and he said (very sarcastically) “so do you think you can make this happen?” - to which I had to reply yes

Moved on to another point of the meeting and he was talking , stopped and demanded I look at him and maintain eye contact with him the whole time he is talking. Told me I was impolite and “your eye contact is all over the place”, look at me when I’m talking to you. “There that’s better”.

it was humiliating, embarrassing, I felt like a little child.

my line manager was in the meeting and walked out with me at the end, she could see I was upset and agreed his behaviour was appalling. I went home to work for the day.

would HR do anything about this? Or is it fair enough to demand extended eye contact from someone

Other teams have overbearing, wanting to prove themselves managers, bossing the staff about, micro managing them. Umpteen complaints have gone to HR but these people stay, keep getting promoted and create a toxic work environment. Me and my team try our best to just avoid the other departments unless we really really need to and even then I say to them "we've got this together, we can do it".

I think you've been in my workplace. It's soul destroying.

All that time wasted on an HR 'procedure' could be put toward solving the problem OPs boss needs solved.

Problem solvers get promoted; whingers never do.

It’s quite normal to take notes in a meeting?
Absolutely not normal to force someone to give you eye contact

All that time wasted on an HR 'procedure' could be put toward solving the problem OPs boss needs solved

Read the OP updates.

Great post, to the point and no name calling

In a similar situation where the bully in the meeting was my line manager (and line manager of everyone else in the room) nobody said a word while the boss ripped in to me.

Everyone emailed me afterwards to say how disgusting his behaviour was...which I submitted as oft of the grievance I raised when I left the company a couple of months later. They ended up paying me a good few months salary for constructive dismissal.

If I were you I'd continue gathering evidence, then when you've got enough, and lined up a new job, submit a grievance citing constructive dismissal.

I feel for you OP, when this happened to me at work I was permanently anxious, couldn't sleep for having nightmares and was in fear of what my boss would try next. Horrible horrible situation.

Makes me laugh too, if a little wryly. Current team manager called me "insubordinate and challenging" when I politely questioned something I didn't agree with. I asked her whether she wouldn't challenge her manager if there was something on a professional level that she disgreed with. Her answer said it all. "No"....

He's a fucking pig.

In situations like that you need to speak up immediately op and say "Dont speak to me like that"

I've done this.

Dont let anyone EVER speak to you like you are a child. No matter who they are.

This attitude really sticks in my craw. So ill-informed and ignorant.

HR sits in the middle between managers and managed. It's their job to ensure that managers deal with their staff equitably and consistently, following relevant policies and procedures to mitigate the risk of litigation on behalf of the organisation.

I'll grant you that, in the higher levels of organisations, I'm well aware that there are 'dodgy' dealings that should not be happening but they're generally senior enough to be able to cover their arses and get away with it.

Honestly, unfortunately with bullies, you have to stand up to them immediately. Or they do it again. Bitter experience here.

When he told you to maintain eye contact, you needed to say:

I am taking notes. Do not speak to me as though I am a naughty child, thank you.

When he said make it happen, you needed to say:

This has been previously investigated and found not to be feasible. I can provide further information if you wish.

You have to stand up to these people. Whilst you could go to HR, IME that may not be effective.

I must have missed the part where the OP said it was in an office. Could have been offshore on an oil rig. Or in a steel mill. Or a warehouse. Or a transport and distribution depot. Or a fire station. Or a prison. Or in any one of a hundred other workplaces where supervisors tell their workers what needs to be done that day. Couldn't it?

There's a lot of MN posters who seem to believe that the safe, comfortable, indoor, privileged, salaried world of 9-5 busy-work that many people operate in is representative of the wider world of work. Newsflash - it's not. Not everywhere is a combat zone under live fire ... but many workplaces need robust and resilient people willing and able to take orders from their bosses, and to do what needs to be done whether they agree with it or not. I wonder how many of the people posting on this thread are care workers, or cleaners, or work in retail, or hospitality? Anyone working in those settings who reacts to a dressing down for being rude and dismissive to their boss by complaining to HR doesn't last long. The sex of the worker or their boss has nothing to do with it - although in my experience, many of the best supervisors in those settings are often very tough women who won't take any shit from workers who care more about their perceived status and being respected than they do about getting stuff done.

If the OP goes to HR, the power really only is with the complainant where they are valued more by the organisation than the person being complained of. And even then, there needs to be sufficient evidence to substantiate the allegation. So far we have two witnesses - a line manager who was present but didn't intervene at the time (fat lot of good) and a fourth person where the OP is "not sure they would back [them]". That's not looking like great odds for a successful case.

Best advice on this thread so far? Don't pin your hopes on HR ... join a union. A union rep can and will do far more of practical value to you and any other colleagues suffering workplace bullying and harassment than the organisation's own HR department ever will.

Why is it rude? Do you listen to people through your eyes? Would you expect a blind person to look at you? A person with autism? A person with cerebral palsy? There are many reasons why someone may not look directly at the person talking to them. Only 1 of those reason would be ‘because they are rude’.
On the other hand, being talked at as if you’re a naughty child in a meeting with other adults is absolutely rude and he needs to be pulled up on this misogynistic behaviour.

Oh my god - listen to yourself!

You did miss that bit.

And who do you think the union rep deals with? HR!!"

^
Kinda the point.

The Union Rep deals with HR, and acts for the worker.
HR acts for management.

Join a union.

When my friend had a bullying line manager a few years ago, the bully once went as far as to shout and swear at her in a meeting in front of a senior HR manager.

My friend thought that HR would finally address the bullying. But after the meeting, the HR manager flatly denied hearing any of the shouting and swearing. The fact that the bully was a close friend of one of the senior directors might have had something to do with it.

Not surprisingly, my friend resigned shortly afterwards.

By argumentative and refuse to take direction do you mean "was a woman daring to have a different opinion to him

im assuming you’re a bloke and that’s how you define women. Argumentative and refusing to take direction for you equates to a woman who has a different opinion? Jog on with that nonsense

no woman on here would define someone who is argumentative and not taking direction as a woman with a different opinion to a man . Can’t even believe you wrote it.

the incel website is that way =>

Was in a meeting a while back on Teams, whole team. Endless discussion on stats that should have been an email. Managers absolutely insist on cameras on. My attention wandered a bit. There was nothing I wanted to contribute and I was bored stupid but I was still listening.

I noticed the cat's bum face directed at me, realised I was displeasing She Who Must Be Obeyed Unquestioningly. Manager did something they never do normally - picked on me to answer a question like a teacher in a classroom.

They must have been hugely disappointed because I was able to answer them instantly and comprehensively. The intent was clear though. They thought I wouldn't know what I was being asked, providing them with an opportunity to give me a public bollocking. It's the little wins...

Ironically this is the manager who is so rude in other people's meetings as to continue to work on their phone/laptop...

Bollocks. All they do is advocate for the employee. If you haven't got the confidence to put forward your own case, then that's fine, but they can't actually do anything. There's a lot of pretty crap union reps out there, and a few really good ones who actually work in collaboration with HR to get the best outcome for staff.

Unions are bound by procedure just as much as HR. Do you think the entire union is going to call industrial action for one member who's being bullied? Not a chance.

PS HR do not act for managers. They act to protect the organisation from future litigation ie to ensure that employees are treated fairly.

OP, do not take notice of the above comment. It's this kind of opinion that facilitates and supports toxic workplace cultures. Granted it's still a huge problem, but these kind of old-guard attitudes are becoming less and less tolerated in the workplace, whether that's through people like @Mark19735 retiring or being shown their P45.

If you are a hyper-sensitive and needy employee prone to insubordination and misjudging situations and behaving inappropriately

This is a perfect example of workplace (mostly male) gaslighting.

If the proposal has been mooted before but not found to be workable in the past, the fact that it’s being raised again must mean that it’s perceived to have some significant benefit for the organisation. I’d suspect that it financial and that the senior manager is under considerable pressure to reduce costs and the line manager is aware of this pressure too. Hence why when the most junior person round the table responded with objections couched in what was taken to be a confrontational way, and persisted in these objections without reading the room, tempers boiled over.

The OP who had already blotted her copybook was then perceived by the senior manager to be in a huff.

It is honestly exhausting managing people who will not countenance any change in processes or procedures, only see things from their own narrow perspective and continually push back when the needs of the wider organisation are such that those changes have to be made.

In the circumstances OP has outlined, I would have wanted my team member to have said that the proposal had been looked at previously and rejected at the time but that she would look at it again to see if a way through could be found. The fact that her own line manager did not apparently support her position even before the senior manager lost his rag, does say something about how OP was conducting herself in the meeting!

I'd speak to your LM, ask them if there is anything you could have done differently, then say that you were disappointed that she didn't have your back in the meeting.

I would take my next steps from there. But I would likely say that you are not prepared to be in a meeting with this person without her there and if you are talked to like this ever again, you expect her backing otherwise this position is untenable.

I'd be wary of going straight to HR. Your manager has also mucked up a bit here, although you're both effective victims of the hideous man, as your senior it's her job to have your back.

I would grow a pair and have it out with him. You should have challenged him in the meeting along the lines of "who do you think you're talking to?". Bullies like him only get away with behaviour like that because they think everyone too scared to call them on it. What's the worst that can happen? He complains about you and you explain what happened .

I disagree about finding new solutions and all that BS. The boss is just setting the OP up to fail. She’s had to say yes and, of it doesn’t work out, which is likely, there’s an opportunity for more humiliation. He’s an arse. Just by wishing something into existence doesn’t make it happen. He’s behaving like a toddler.