Humiliated in meeting

[Hammili]

I don’t want this to be too outing. Essentially boss is a Jekyll and Hyde character, one minute overly friendly and enthusiastic the next minute he can be nasty, overbearing and demanding

Meeting yesterday with 4 people. He floated an idea (by floated I mean demanded it happens). I spoke up as to the barriers to stop this from happening (it’s the area I manage). He was incredibly rude, told me to stop talking, make it happen, I’m not interested in the issues and that I was being confrontational.

At that point I shut up and he said (very sarcastically) “so do you think you can make this happen?” - to which I had to reply yes

Moved on to another point of the meeting and he was talking , stopped and demanded I look at him and maintain eye contact with him the whole time he is talking. Told me I was impolite and “your eye contact is all over the place”, look at me when I’m talking to you. “There that’s better”.

it was humiliating, embarrassing, I felt like a little child.

my line manager was in the meeting and walked out with me at the end, she could see I was upset and agreed his behaviour was appalling. I went home to work for the day.

would HR do anything about this? Or is it fair enough to demand extended eye contact from someone

Public service this is disgraceful straight to HR

I would raise a grievance against this twat. If you end up leaving it could be classed as constructive dismissal and you need this evidence.

Even if a team member is not concentrating on what is happening or is being rude (not saying OP was) there is a right and wrong way for management to deal with it.

Saying to them, in public that they need to look them in the eye and insisting they do it immediately, is totally inappropriate. Castigating people like that in front of others in a meeting is never appropriate. Belittling is never acceptable.

If there was an issue, the manager should have spoken to OP about it afterwards.

Yes, of course there are times when team members don’t perform as they should or behave as they should. Managers need to address it, but it is so important that people understand what is the appropriate way and place. A public meeting and use of bullying g techniques Ivor public humiliation is never acceptable. It cannot be justified on any grounds…..which some people seem to be wanting to do. They are not picking up on the context and way it was done, which is vital.

In future learn the words 'no' and 'don't speak to me like that'. I know it's hard in the heat of the moment. But don't let anyone treat you like shit.

And youd be wise to just quit btw.
Hr are generally useless against management.
And life is too short to work for assholes.

If you stay, don't ever be alone in a room with him. Refuse private meetings. Always take a witness if he insists. And yes, attempt to call him out via hr.

A lovely job of victim blaming here

if a manager, or anyone, has an issue with someone you first have a private conversation- just the 2 of you . If that doesn’t work a senior manager may take it to your line manager and then your line manager discuss it privately with you. If that fails you take to HR, and , guess what, they deal with you privately and your manager privately etcetc

telling someone off, criticising them, is NEVER done in front of anyone else unless it is to humiliate and shame them. That is bullying . You don’t do it, no matter how bad the behaviours are

fgs, I’d have expected any adult to realise that

I agree with this, unfortunately.

I’ve known of several bad managers who presided over unhappy teams with high staff turnover. Some of these managers were eventually managed out, but only after 5+ years. Others seem to be made of Teflon and have even been promoted/kicked upwards.

There are plenty of decent managers around. Life’s too short to work for the dickhead minority.

Can you leave/change dept? Sounds drastic but life is too short to spend your days working for dickheads

Are your meetings minuted or recorded ?

I wouldn't count on this because she didn't back you up in the meeting. She may support you in private but clearly doesn't want to confront the boss herself.

I agree with this. I fully understand why the op did it. And i fully emphasise. But if he was talking to her and she refused to look up or stop doing what she was doing he’d have interpreted that as her being very rude and pointedly ignoring him as he’d firmly told her to get it done and stfu.

there is also a way to put things across. And it’s not just him, it’s From both sides. It sounds like he’s the senior manager, attended the meeting to state something had to be done, and the op gave a very long list of why that was a no and was argumentative about it. That’s why he eventually said stop talking.

When it seems actually it was feasible so he’s eventually told her to stop talking and get it done, he’s become very annoyed, it’s got heated , and then as she was upset she continued taking notes and refusing to look at him whilst he spoke to her, resulting in him stepping way out of line and behaving very unprofessionally .

in reality if the op was going to cry it would habe been better to excuse herself, leave the room, compose her self and return. rather than sit and continue to take notes and not interact with him when he was speaking to her.

Also. I’m a firm believer in reading the room, you can put your objections forward but ther comes a point when you realise it’s a three line whip and your own manager isn’t even backing your point.

he’s stepped over the line and behaved hugely unprofessionally but there was also better ways to deal with it from the ops side

I did it myself years ago. I stood and repeatedly argued my case. I failed to understand that I should have listed the complexities and concerns, the steps we would need to take to make it happen and then when I knew they knew. Accepted the direction and Moved on. I also should have stepped out when it became too much for me.

This. I'm a line manager and never in a million years would I sit quietly and let my/our boss speak to one of my team as described in the OP.

At the very very least I'd jump in with a 'shall we move on, we can discuss this within the team later' to disrupt and draw a line.

The fact your own manager was there and said nothing, tells you that the person who spoke to you is frightening everyone and has probably done it before .

Write it down. Go to your manager and say that it was not acceptable, and you want to discuss with her how to make a formal complaint or grievance. If she doesn’t immediately set up something to deal with it , say to her you will also be including her on the grievance as it wasn’t acceptable for her to have not stepped in when it was happening and take it straight to HR.

Who was other person? If possible get them to write down what they saw and heard in meeting. Don’t ask them to make opinions on rights and wrongs, just write down what they saw and heard and send to HR, you and your direct manager.

I would have and have walked out of a meeting in similar circumstances.

Basically said I can't deal with this and walked out mid meeting.

No repercussions, just a bit of egg shells around me by the perpetrator

crystal clear case of bullying at the workplace. I might send him an email as follow up to his horrible behaviour and document document document. Then go to HR. Be ready for this to have major repercussions in your work but the other option is to be bullied by a massive jerk who clearly gets off from putting you down and the power trip.

He's not not interested in the issues because he knows full well there are issues and he doesn't want to face them. Will it be his head that rolls if it goes tits up, didn't think so. Nasty jumped up bully.

I’ve never read such an absolute load of utter bollocks in my life 🙄

You do not, even in those situations, demand eye contact in a humiliating way in front of people

you let it go, or you call someone by their name directly which almost always has an automatic response for them to look up and make eye contact however briefly to acknowledge you have addressed them directly.

after the meeting you then ask individual to stay on for a quick “chat”. You then tell them how it made YOU feel when you didn’t get eye contact. Ask them then if there was a reason why they weren’t looking at you when you addressed them. There are lots of reasons for people not looking. If the OP was already humiliated by being told to shut up, there’s a strong possibility she was already trying to guard her emotions and shame and looking down is a an instinctive reaction to being in front of someone who has shamed you

So your line manager was in the meeting and just remained mute? Wow

OP I get you. I've worked for one of these, although she never was like this with witnesses.

We had a camera off zoom call culture generally, never switched them on for catch ups or team meetings. When it came to any kind of giving horrible feedback meetings (which were straight up savage) she would insist cameras had to be on. I think she liked to see us tearing up. It really felt that personal.

The only thing you can really do is start looking elsewhere. You are in a slightly better position that they aren't your immediate line manager, but this is not a good environment. I've moved jobs now and I was worried my last one had put me down so much I had no confidence to interview but I got a new one and everyone is so nice, from the top down. There is support at every level. And there is no way this company wouldn't have stopped a meeting going like that because people aren't afraid to speak up.

There is something very wrong with this company, it's not you. You deserve better. Best of luck in looking. I found making that decision alone made everything easier just because I'd promised myself I'd get out.

That's terrible. I would complain yea

Absolutely speak to HR. I would arrange a meeting with them and ask your line manager to go with you to the meeting. Follow the meeting up with an email so there is a written record. Tell HR that you have been unable to do your job properly due to the way he humiliated you and then also go and speak to your GP so there is another record there.

Speaking as a line manager in a very traditional, old school industry, BULL. SHIT.

Do you really believe that HR can ride in like a knight in shining armour to slay the dragon? Of course not - it's up to managers to manage!! HR will advise on policy and procedures, how to handle situations according to best practice, and will facilitate meetings but it's not their job to manage everyone's staff!!! I don't know why on earth people persist in thinking it is.

And Payroll is not HR - it's a finance function. They may process documentation on the instructions of HR but they are generally not HR.

While HR may advise managers, they can't force them to take the advice given. Hence people dismiss HR as being useless, not the manager responsible!!

@Hammili your line manager should have spoken out at the time. I'd not be relying on their support tbh. However, there's nothing to stop you speaking up for yourself and saying, "I don't find that an acceptable way to speak to me". (I'm going to make more use of that line myself in the near future!) Maybe you should read up on assertiveness.

By all means go to HR for advice. A few words of my advice -

1. Don't expect HR to 'fix' it. They don't have that power or authority.
2. Issues are best dealt with informally and at the time they occur. Otherwise they fester and escalate.
3. You can certainly make a formal complaint but mostly there are no 'winners' in interpersonal disputes. Often this is due to lack of evidence, unwilling witnesses who refuse to get involved, and the fact that many of the issues are personality clashes and very much, "she said, he said". Nobody can reach a reasonable conclusion on the wrongs and rights of the situation, and employees then get the hump because they're not "believed". The truth is they are neither believed or not believed. Nobody knows what's gone on other than the individuals directly involved.
4. Taking a formal complaint is stressful, time-consuming and can be prolonged. You need to be very clear as to the outcome you expect. It's absolutely not something to enter into lightly.
5. If all else fails, vote with your feet.

Report him. He's a bully and this behaviour is unprofessional and unacceptable.

HR is part of the management team. Their brief, in any company, is not there primarily to support individuals by expressing opinions. They are there to write and maintain a set of policies to manage staff within the letter of the law and what the company is trying to acheive in terms of stuff like retention.
if a policy has been broken, such as an anti bullying policies (which they’ll have somewhere as a public sector body), HR have a role to mitigate this and ensure it is not broken again. If someone comes to them, like the op, and tells them a policy has been broken they have a duty to investigate that. If the OP tells them she wants to make a formal grievance they have a duty to ensure they manage that process according to the law which specifies how much time they can take to respond etc . HR must inform the complainant how the grievance process works and who will be on the hearing panel. Etc etc

you seem very arrogant that you think you can just wing it with your staff based on your gut feelings and experience and that HR has no use. I dare say this bullying boss feels the same -why do I need HR when I get results with people by calling them out directly. We all have blind spots in our self awareness and what some staff may like and feel easy to deal with in one boss, like you, others may struggle with. Unconscious bias is a good and extremely common example of this.