Asked to swap days off so that maternity appointment will always fall in days off

[Grapefruitbreakfast]

So say I usually have Thu off

Wednesday is the day the midwife is at my drs
so all appoints on wed

work asked me to swap my day off from Thu to wed
so that I can go in my day off but I’ve been really sick and knackered and don’t want to spend half my day off dealing with that

I have not and would never suggest the OP should work the time she takes for an appointment. What I have said is it is not unreasonable for a manager to ask (not compel/force/bully) an employee if they would consider swapping working days and it is not unreasonable for the employee to refuse.

@Princessglittery now I have read this, it appears you are missing the entire point of OP's post. The manager is asking her to swap working days so her appointment falls on a non-working day. (A non-working day which is the equivalent of a weekend in her case because she works one day every weekend to have this day off). This means they are asking her to work the time she takes for an appointment. Surely you are able to comprehend this?!!

No I would not be horrified or appalled if a member of staff asked their employer for a favour

I would be horrified and appalled if one of my team leaders asked a member of staff to disadvantage themselves in order to try to avoid them receiving a legal right

@prescribingmum I have never suggested the OP does not have a legal right. I have been clear the OP can refuse.

You are not using a comparable situation, an employer who needs employees 24/7 is very different to 8-5 M-F. You are comparing apples and pears.

Using your example of 5 days a week - if the nhs offered maternity appointments 7 days a week are you honestly saying a Manager asking (not telling/ordering/bullying) a team member if they could arrange an appointment on a Saturday or Sunday would be unreasonable, and you would be horrified and appalled?

Yes we would be appalled by this, it would demonstrate that our organisation is likely to mistreat and discriminate against pregnant employees

@HesDeadBenYouCanStopNow
Very interesting that you see one as a favour and one a legal right when both situations are covered by legislation.

No @Princessglittery it is you who is comparing apples and pears. You cannot compare asking to swap a non working day on a single occasion for employer or employee convenience to asking to swap so the employee attends an appointment she has a legal right to time off for on her day off so as not to be in working hours.

And to answer your question - yes I would be equally appalled even if the maternity unit was open on a weekend. The employee could have other commitments on a weekend or have any other reason she needs to attend in the week. She has a right to the time off and I would never ask more than that I am given notice for appointments and that they attempt to schedule them at either end of the day if possible.

Fwiw I did have a case where an employee had a choice of an antenatal course on a weekend or weekday (which meant work time). She has a legal right to paid time off so I didn’t even think to ask why she wanted the weekday, I just approved it. I later found out in conversation that she wanted the weekday because her partner worked weekends and wouldn’t have been able to go with her.

@prescribingmum you are missing the point. It's another give and take
Employer is effectively asking for an additional half day off due to her pregnancy. It's not unreasonable to swap her days to help her employer. Even though she is entitled to paid time off for maternity care

There are many reasons why women won't catch up in the workplace ........

If OP is sick and can't work she should take sick leave. Don't understand what that has got to do with her day off. It is because she wants to have 1.5 days off

@prescribingmum fair enough you would never ask in any situation.

I have obviously been fortunate to work for good employers that enabled me to recruit pregnant women, promote pregnant women, advise pregnant women how to maximise SMP, OMP, plan annual leave so they don’t repay OMP, helped them to write flexible working requests, advise women how to maximise flexibility ( you would be amazed how many request very restrictive working patterns), ensuring part time employers are treated fairly etc. In that working environment give and take is more common and a conversation in this situation would not be unreasonable.

We will have to agree to disagree.

No @chopc you are missing the point because them asking means she is being treated unfavourably vs an employee who works M-F and has their appointment in the week. They would never be asked to swap and work on a Sat or Sun instead of a Wed so her appointment falls on a NWD so why are they asking her to? She already works 5 days each week

The employer is not allowed to ask her to swap her days and they could get themselves in very hot water.

The question should never have been asked. It worries me that so many managers don’t know and understand legislation

I have obviously been fortunate to work for good employers that enabled me to recruit pregnant women, promote pregnant women, advise pregnant women how to maximise SMP, OMP, plan annual leave so they don’t repay OMP, helped them to write flexible working requests, advise women how to maximise flexibility ( you would be amazed how many request very restrictive working patterns), ensuring part time employers are treated fairly etc.

@Princessglittery as have I. As I showed from my previous posts, I am flexible as a manager and have benefited from being managed by managers who are equally flexible. When discussing returning to work, I always talk to my employees as a fellow mum and am open about what worked best for me.

However, this is an area I wouldn’t dream of asking from a full time employee.
If they were part time and could facilitate some in their own time, I would have this discussion but never for someone who works full time. The guidance posted above by PP is very clear

@prescribingmum
However, this is an area I wouldn’t dream of asking from a full time employee.
If they were part time and could facilitate some in their own time, I would have this discussion but never for someone who works full time. The guidance posted above by PP is very clear.

Asking a PT employee to swap working days when you wouldn’t ask a FT employee is unlawful as it is less favourable treatment. Part Time Workers (Prevention of less favourable treatment) Regulations and potentially sex discrimination as most PT employees are female.

You pointed out the OPs Thursday day off is the equivalent of a Saturday/Sunday the same is true for PT staff whose non-working days are extra Saturdays/Sundays. Why is it not appalling to ask a PT employee to change working days but it is appalling to ask a FT employee?

I have always agreed that any employee is legally entitled to attend anti natal appointments in working time. All I have said is it is not unreasonable to have a conversation about swapping non-working days.

As posted by a PP

maternityaction.org.uk/advice/time-off-for-antenatal-care/

You should not be asked to arrange your appointments outside working hours or to make up the time, although you should minimise disruption to your working hours as much as possible. If you work part-time you should try to arrange your appointments on non-working days but if that is not possible, your employer must allow you paid time off.

The law says that employees are entitled to reasonable paid time off for their antenatal care. Your employer cannot ask you to make up the time or to change your working hours. If you work part-time, you are still entitled to time off where your appointments fall during your normal working hours.

I think I wasn’t clear. I wouldn’t ask a PT worker to change their working day - just if any appointments could be on their NWD. I wouldn’t ask any employee to change their day as per advice from above

@prescribingmum I think I wasn’t clear. I wouldn’t ask a PT worker to change their working day - just if any appointments could be on their NWD. I wouldn’t ask any employee to change their day as per advice from above

So you would be happy to ask the OP her if any appointments could be on her NWD.

I respectfully suggest you and pp are careful when posting advice/guidance rather than the actual legislation. This states “If you work part-time you should try to arrange your appointments on non-working days but if that is not possible, your employer must allow you paid time off.” I would question whether that is legally compliant as the OP and people working compressed hours are FT but have a non-working day on a week day and could also ”try to arrange their appointments on non-working days.”

The Employment Rights Act is silent on whether or not an employee can be asked to swap working days www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1996/18/part/VI/crossheading/antenatal-care

Gov.uk states “Employers cannot change a pregnant employee’s contract terms and conditions without agreement - if they do they are in breach of contract.” www.gov.uk/working-when-pregnant-your-rights

Changing working days is a contractual change, this implies you can change contractual terms with agreement. So asking is not unlawful.

We are 'entitled' to lots of things. Doesn't mean I choose to use that entitlement just for the sake if it. If there's a way to make things better for everyone, I take it. That's why I have a great relationship with my employer, and am permitted to do things I'm NOT entitled to, such as take paid time off to watch my son in his Christmas nativity or to attend school open days.

This.
Flexibility works both ways.

@UsingChangeofName exactly. Not unreasonable to ask not unreasonable to refuse.

I've been thinking about this and I think the difference is balance of power. For staff that are in roles that are in high demand and scarce to recruit the balance is in their favour and it may be easier for them to say no to a request like this,

However, for staff in lower status and less secure roles that can be easily replaced then the employer has more power and the staff member is likely to feel unable to say no. In this position asking would be really inappropriate as it is possible it will feel not an ask but an instruction.

Well there are not too many midwife appointments in a standard pregnancy, even less if not a first baby. You must have had some already, so not many left?

@HesDeadBenYouCanStopNow that is a very fair point. As with a lot of things in life there are good and poor employers, managers and employees. Who holds the power in the relationship is a factor. No one knows the OP, her employer nor her manager.

If for example the OP works Sunday-Wed and Friday, as she is struggling with her pregnancy her manager may have said as you are struggling would it be better to swap your NWD so you work Sun-Tue and Thur -Fri and break the week up more evenly (3 days NWD 2days). This would also mean you don’t have to do so much travelling to get to and from your antenatal appointment and work.

Alternatively they might have said I’m fed up of you having your antenatal appointments on a Thurs, you either need to arrange them for your NWD or as I’ve agreed several times to swap your NWD so you can do xyz Im going to ask you to swap your NWD or I will be less flexible in the future.

Very different scenarios, one thinking how to help the OP one not.

Calling some posters horrible, appalling, discriminatory or unlawful for saying it’s not unreasonable to ask the question have immediately assumed it is the latter scenario not the first.

The Employment Rights Act states (2)An employee is not entitled to take time off under this section to keep an appointment unless, if her employer requests her to do so, she produces for his inspection—
(a)a certificate from a registered medical practitioner, registered midwife or [F1registered nurse] stating that the employee is pregnant, and
(b)an appointment card or some other document showing that the appointment has been made.

Legally as a manager I could refuse to allow the time off if these documents are not produced. I think a lot of posters would consider me unreasonable even though it’s lawful. IRL I have never asked for, nor been shown either of these documents, I have trusted my staff.

That's my point @Princessglittery

"Alternatively they might have said I’m fed up of you having your antenatal appointments on a Thurs, you either need to arrange them for your NWD or as I’ve agreed several times to swap your NWD so you can do xyz Im going to ask you to swap your NWD or I will be less flexible in the future."

The above would be appalling and I would be horrified if it happened in my organisation

But employers don't have to be that blatant to be inappropriate. For a staff member that is without power simply asking them to swap their work day without stating the above would have the same impact as she may not feel able to refuse. An employer might even leave the staff member feeling that they have no choice without the employer realising.

Hence why I don't think it's right to ask a woman to swap her working day that had a pregnancy related appointment to another day unless it is suggested with the clear explicit intention that the offer is better for the pregnant woman

@HesDeadBenYouCanStopNow I agree with you in relation to that quote, I deliberately wrote it as an example of poor management when it would not be a reasonable request.

I also gave an example at the other end of the spectrum which we both agree would be reasonable because “.it is suggested with the clear explicit intention that the offer is better for the pregnant woman.”