Page 3 | Asked to swap days off so that maternity appointment will always fall in days off

Grapefruitbreakfast · 2023-02-02T09:13:12+00:00

So say I usually have Thu off Wednesday is the day the midwife is at my drs so all appoints on wed work asked me to swap my day off from Thu to wed so that I can go in my day off but I’ve been really sick and knackered and don’t want to spend half my day off dealing with that

mumoffourminimes · 02/02/2023 19:52

Are you in employment @SarahAndQuack ?

SarahAndQuack · 02/02/2023 20:03

mumoffourminimes · 02/02/2023 19:52

Are you in employment @SarahAndQuack ?

I am.

surreygirl1987 · 02/02/2023 20:16

I think when taking the mick, that is actually shafting other women 🤔

I agree.

And the colleague I'm thinking of openly bragged about 'getting away' with taking half a day off for a 20 min appointment.

We are 'entitled' to lots of things. Doesn't mean I choose to use that entitlement just for the sake if it. If there's a way to make things better for everyone, I take it. That's why I have a great relationship with my employer, and am permitted to do things I'm NOT entitled to, such as take paid time off to watch my son in his Christmas nativity or to attend school open days.

prescribingmum · 02/02/2023 20:19

Now you’ve said you work full time, I would say 100% do not change anything. You are legally entitled to the time off and Thursday is your equivalent of a weekend.

A reasonable employer would not dream of asking this from a full time employee

SarahAndQuack · 02/02/2023 20:20

surreygirl1987 · 02/02/2023 20:16

I think when taking the mick, that is actually shafting other women 🤔

I agree.

And the colleague I'm thinking of openly bragged about 'getting away' with taking half a day off for a 20 min appointment.

We are 'entitled' to lots of things. Doesn't mean I choose to use that entitlement just for the sake if it. If there's a way to make things better for everyone, I take it. That's why I have a great relationship with my employer, and am permitted to do things I'm NOT entitled to, such as take paid time off to watch my son in his Christmas nativity or to attend school open days.

Sorry, has the OP said she's taking the piss?

I don't take the piss either; my employer bends over backwards to let me flex my time around childcare, because he knows I am working hard when I'm at work. But that is him doing me a favour. It has nothing to do with anyone's legal rights or legal obligations.

Nicecow · 02/02/2023 20:28

Random question, isn't it easier to have an appointment on your day off? I find it much more disruptive doing it during a work day, particularly with travel from the office to the appointment etc unless they are both in the city. I prefer to have appointments on my days off for this reason alone, it's much more relaxed. I was working part time when I was pregnant so scheduled midwife appointments when I could on my days off so I wasn't rushing around

surreygirl1987 · 02/02/2023 20:47

*Sorry, has the OP said she's taking the piss?

I don't take the piss either; my employer bends over backwards to let me flex my time around childcare, because he knows I am working hard when I'm at work. But that is him doing me a favour. It has nothing to do with anyone's legal rights or legal obligations.*

No, if you read up-thread you'll find the post where I was talking about a colleague. She's the one who openly brags about taking a half day off for a 20 min appointment.

prescribingmum · 03/02/2023 09:55

Nicecow · 02/02/2023 20:28

Random question, isn't it easier to have an appointment on your day off? I find it much more disruptive doing it during a work day, particularly with travel from the office to the appointment etc unless they are both in the city. I prefer to have appointments on my days off for this reason alone, it's much more relaxed. I was working part time when I was pregnant so scheduled midwife appointments when I could on my days off so I wasn't rushing around

I did the same when I was pregnant and worked part time although I didn’t have to. But OP has explained she works full time - Thu is one of her days off because she works a weekend day. In which case, I don’t see why she should have to take it on her day off - someone working Mon-Fri would never be told to start working on a Sat to make up for their appointments so same applies here

OooohAhhhh · 03/02/2023 10:01

Absolutely not!
You are entitled to maternity appointments during working hours, which they have to accommodate for. In the nicest way, just tell them to naff off, and say no.
Tough shit, and they can't do anything about it!

MajorCarolDanvers · 03/02/2023 10:08

It's not U for them to ask.

It's not U for you to say no if you don't want to.

rwalker · 03/02/2023 10:14

Of course you can say no but tbh if you and employer are flexible it helps all round as long as it’s not all one sided

Dammitthisisshit · 03/02/2023 10:24

Mariposa26 · 02/02/2023 10:40

Gosh can’t believe some of the comments here. This is a legal right and despite that, it is almost impossible to change these appointments particularly at the moment with staffing levels - I’ve been all over the place location wise for my midwife appointments and fitted in wherever they can put me!
“Reasonable time” in this context, as outlined in link a PP shared, relates to the amount of time spent going to the appointment - not that you should rearrange the appointment for a non-working day!

Agree with this 100%.

A few years ago someone in my team who worked half time apologised for having a maternity appointment in work time as they usually arranged them in their off time. I felt rubbish for not realising they were arranging them all in their off time. My opinion (note Im not sure on legalities, but surely the aim is to treat everyone fairly) was that as they worked 50% hours so roughly 50% of their appointments would naturally fall in working hours and they should take them as such. Expecting all appointments to be on off days would mean treating them differently to a full time employee which is discrimination.

Princessglittery · 03/02/2023 10:49

It’s not unreasonable to ask and it’s not unreasonable to refuse.

However, remember flexibility goes both ways if in future @Grapefruitbreakfast occasionally wants to swap working days for personal reasons it would not be unreasonable for her to ask and it would not be unreasonable for her employer to refuse.

badgergirly · 03/02/2023 11:00

Tell them you have other priorities on a Thursday and unfortunately cannot swop your day off.

inloveandmarried · 03/02/2023 11:57

Absolutely not. You wouldn't be expected to spend your Saturday or Sunday at maternity appointments if you'd worked a full week.

They are asking you to do the equivalent.

Just say politely, sorry you can't change out your Thursday off.

If they push just say you have regular commitments on that day.

If they want to know what (non of their business what you do on your day off) remind them your employer has to accommodate maternity appointments during work time by law.

They need to be covering your maternity, not you.

prescribingmum · 03/02/2023 12:09

Princessglittery · 03/02/2023 10:49

It’s not unreasonable to ask and it’s not unreasonable to refuse.

However, remember flexibility goes both ways if in future @Grapefruitbreakfast occasionally wants to swap working days for personal reasons it would not be unreasonable for her to ask and it would not be unreasonable for her employer to refuse.

She works full time. It is absolutely unreasonable to ask (and against to law to insist on it).

As I said in my previous post - no employer would dream of asking an employee who works Mon-Fri with a Wed appointment to start working Saturday instead of Wed to minimise the inconvenience to them. This is no different - Thu is her fixed day off as she regularly works on the weekend.

Flexibility works both ways is not an excuse for breaking the law. A good employer would never have considered asking this from a full time employee

gogohmm · 03/02/2023 12:16

The rules around maternity appointments were established assuming you work full time, if you don't work full time then being a bit flexible is building good will for the future. Apart from the scan they don't take more than a few minutes once a month anyway. The rule at my work was we should schedule them for the beginning or end of the day to minimise disruption to work, that seems reasonable

HeavenIsAHalfpipe · 03/02/2023 12:37

gogohmm · 03/02/2023 12:16

The rules around maternity appointments were established assuming you work full time, if you don't work full time then being a bit flexible is building good will for the future. Apart from the scan they don't take more than a few minutes once a month anyway. The rule at my work was we should schedule them for the beginning or end of the day to minimise disruption to work, that seems reasonable

@gogohmm

The rules around maternity appointments were established assuming you work full time,

Absolute hogwash. That has never been a thing! You can't just make things up to suit your agenda you know...

From THIS website.

maternityaction.org.uk/advice/time-off-for-antenatal-care/

You should not be asked to arrange your appointments outside working hours or to make up the time, although you should minimise disruption to your working hours as much as possible. If you work part-time you should try to arrange your appointments on non-working days but if that is not possible, your employer must allow you paid time off.

The law says that employees are entitled to reasonable paid time off for their antenatal care. Your employer cannot ask you to make up the time or to change your working hours. If you work part-time, you are still entitled to time off where your appointments fall during your normal working hours if this is unavoidable

So, yes, if you CAN get your appointment on one of your days off that is helpful/better for your employer, but you don't HAVE to, and there is NOTHING they can do. They cannot penalise you for it, or insist you switch it to a day off, (and they cannot make you make up the hours, or dock your pay.)

ALSO.. from the actual GOVERNMENT...

www.gov.uk/working-when-pregnant-your-rights

Pregnant employees have 4 main legal rights:
paid time off for antenatal care
maternity leave
maternity pay or maternity allowance

protection against unfair treatment, discrimination or dismissal
‘Antenatal care’ is not just medical appointments - it can also include antenatal or parenting classes if they’ve been recommended by a doctor or midwife.
Employers cannot change a pregnant employee’s contract terms and conditions without agreement - if they do they are in breach of contract

Read all this and learn. It's because of people with attitudes like yours, that women now have so many rights, and so much protection, when they are pregnant/when they've had a baby!

Princessglittery · 03/02/2023 13:24

prescribingmum · 03/02/2023 12:09

She works full time. It is absolutely unreasonable to ask (and against to law to insist on it).

As I said in my previous post - no employer would dream of asking an employee who works Mon-Fri with a Wed appointment to start working Saturday instead of Wed to minimise the inconvenience to them. This is no different - Thu is her fixed day off as she regularly works on the weekend.

Flexibility works both ways is not an excuse for breaking the law. A good employer would never have considered asking this from a full time employee

Show quote history

@prescribingmum I agree in a role where the requirement is Monday to Friday it would not be asked of a full time employee working 5 days. However, a full time employee working compressed hours e.g 5 days in 4 could be asked to swap. Again, it would not be unreasonable to ask nor to refuse.

@Grapefruitbreakfast is not in a Monday to Friday job and it will depend on the culture, if her employer allows employees to ask for flexibility to swap/switch non-working days for personal reasons it is not unreasonable for them to ask if an employee can swap days for business reasons. As I previously stated the op was not unreasonable in refusing and was legally allowed to refuse.

Most of the biggest issues in employer employee relationships start small because people are afraid to have difficult conversations, small issues fester and grow until the relationship breaks down.

It is not unlawful for an employee to ask to swap working days but it is lawful for an employer to refuse. Equally it is not unlawful for an employer to ask an employee to swap working days but it is lawful for the employee to refuse.

prescribingmum · 03/02/2023 13:45

Princessglittery · 03/02/2023 13:24

@prescribingmum I agree in a role where the requirement is Monday to Friday it would not be asked of a full time employee working 5 days. However, a full time employee working compressed hours e.g 5 days in 4 could be asked to swap. Again, it would not be unreasonable to ask nor to refuse.

@Grapefruitbreakfast is not in a Monday to Friday job and it will depend on the culture, if her employer allows employees to ask for flexibility to swap/switch non-working days for personal reasons it is not unreasonable for them to ask if an employee can swap days for business reasons. As I previously stated the op was not unreasonable in refusing and was legally allowed to refuse.

Most of the biggest issues in employer employee relationships start small because people are afraid to have difficult conversations, small issues fester and grow until the relationship breaks down.

It is not unlawful for an employee to ask to swap working days but it is lawful for an employer to refuse. Equally it is not unlawful for an employer to ask an employee to swap working days but it is lawful for the employee to refuse.

Show quote history

@Princessglittery she is not working compressed hours - she works FULL TIME ON 5 DAYS each week. She says it in her second post. A weekend day is in her contract so she has a weekday off in return. So it absolutely is unreasonable to ask and she could argue the request means she is being treated unfavourably compared to another employee who works Mon-Fri (I guarantee you no employee working weekdays in her industry would have been asked to work on a weekend instead in exact same circumstances - I would be willing to put money on it). This is discrimination

The employer is the one who is taking the piss here, not her. There is no harm in asking for business reasons in general but it is completely inappropriate when she has a LEGAL right to this time for her appointments. The fact she works full time makes it worse because it is very easy to argue discrimination. A decent employer would not have considered asking such a question.

OP if your employer has asked you in writing, I recommend you keep the emails just in case they are difficult about any other aspect.

Princessglittery · 03/02/2023 15:01

@Grapefruitbreakfast No need to shout. The compressed hours is a valid comparison - we will have to agree to disagree.

We all have legal rights, as do employers, but it doesn’t mean neither an employee nor an employer can’t ask for flexibility.

in a 7 day a week the business operates all 7 days and OP and her colleagues will each have different non-working days. What you are saying is it would be unreasonable and unlawful for the OP to ever ask to swap her Thursday for a Wednesday.

I will give you an example of flexibility I had a new mum phone me up on the day she was due to return to work having not responded to any letters during Mat leave. She was in tears and couldn’t leave her baby. I could have said legally you must return to work or resign and repay OMP. What I actually said was it’s ok here are your options. She took a career break - absolute headache for me to sort out with no notice but it’s what a good employer does.

I don’t know what sort of employer you work for but clearly not a good one where a simple question has you suggesting running for lawyers.

Suedomin · 03/02/2023 15:25

Why be awkward? Employers aren't the enemy and cultivating their good will is worth doing as a working mother
She isn't being awkward, just defending her rights. If she was a full time worker she would have to have the appointment during work time. Why should she be disadvantaged because she works part time.
It shouldn't be necessary to 'cultivate goodwill' to be treated fairly

Suedomin · 03/02/2023 15:29

Sorry I have just realised the OP works full time but her non working day falls midweek. But the same argument applies if she worked Monday to Friday they would have to accommodate her time of for appointments so it shouldn't be any different just because she doesn't

Redebs · 03/02/2023 15:35

HeavenIsAHalfpipe · 03/02/2023 12:37

@gogohmm

The rules around maternity appointments were established assuming you work full time,

Absolute hogwash. That has never been a thing! You can't just make things up to suit your agenda you know...

From THIS website.

maternityaction.org.uk/advice/time-off-for-antenatal-care/

You should not be asked to arrange your appointments outside working hours or to make up the time, although you should minimise disruption to your working hours as much as possible. If you work part-time you should try to arrange your appointments on non-working days but if that is not possible, your employer must allow you paid time off.

The law says that employees are entitled to reasonable paid time off for their antenatal care. Your employer cannot ask you to make up the time or to change your working hours. If you work part-time, you are still entitled to time off where your appointments fall during your normal working hours if this is unavoidable

So, yes, if you CAN get your appointment on one of your days off that is helpful/better for your employer, but you don't HAVE to, and there is NOTHING they can do. They cannot penalise you for it, or insist you switch it to a day off, (and they cannot make you make up the hours, or dock your pay.)

ALSO.. from the actual GOVERNMENT...

www.gov.uk/working-when-pregnant-your-rights

Pregnant employees have 4 main legal rights:
paid time off for antenatal care
maternity leave
maternity pay or maternity allowance

protection against unfair treatment, discrimination or dismissal
‘Antenatal care’ is not just medical appointments - it can also include antenatal or parenting classes if they’ve been recommended by a doctor or midwife.
Employers cannot change a pregnant employee’s contract terms and conditions without agreement - if they do they are in breach of contract

Read all this and learn. It's because of people with attitudes like yours, that women now have so many rights, and so much protection, when they are pregnant/when they've had a baby!

Show quote history

I can't believe people on here think it's ok to bully women out of legally-protected antenatal care.

gemloving · 03/02/2023 15:36

@Binfluencer do you have children? Have you been pregnant? The law states your employer has to give you the time off.

Are all of your doctors appointments outside your working hours?