To the non-vaxxers who work for the NHS- do we have a leg to stand on?

[LMonkey]

So it's looking like vaccines will become mandatory for all NHS workers from April next year...where on earth can we go fro here?
I really dont want to get in to a vaccine debate. I have strong feelings as to why I don't want the vaccine. I'm a med sec and don't see any patients any way, or go anywhere near them. But regardless of this I strongly feel NOBODY should be forced to have any vaccine. Do we have a leg to stand on? I mean it's not lawful to force an employee to have a vaccine but if the government make it compulsory for nhs staff is there any way round it do you think? This really is causing me enormous amounts of stress. I really don't know what to do (please don't anyone say "get the vaccine"). I'd love to hear from others in the same boat or from a legal standpoint.

@idontlikealdi

The choice, vaccine or job. Up to you.

Our choice, functional NHS or staff walk-out. Up to you.

I perform cardiac imaging.

I'm fully vaxxed but I am alarmed at the number of quite young, otherwise fit people who developed heart problems after their Covid vax.

JassyRadlett you deserve a Mumsnet medal for your consistently courteous, patient and scientifically sound approach in the face of so much wilful ignorance and outright misinformation.

I would like to know whether the people on this thread who oppose COVID vaccination because it isn't 100% safe also do not take Paracetamol or Ibuprofen when they have a headache. Because neither of those drugs is 100% safe for everyone to take - and like any other medication, you won't know that you are one of the minority for whom it isn't, until you take it.

@pointythings

JassyRadlett you deserve a Mumsnet medal for your consistently courteous, patient and scientifically sound approach in the face of so much wilful ignorance and outright misinformation.

I would like to know whether the people on this thread who oppose COVID vaccination because it isn't 100% safe also do not take Paracetamol or Ibuprofen when they have a headache. Because neither of those drugs is 100% safe for everyone to take - and like any other medication, you won't know that you are one of the minority for whom it isn't, until you take it.

Did you actually rtft??

The question is not the safety efficacy or otherwise of the covid vaccine but rather whether or not it should be mandatory for healthcare workers.

I don't know why I bother really 😐

@pointythings

JassyRadlett you deserve a Mumsnet medal for your consistently courteous, patient and scientifically sound approach in the face of so much wilful ignorance and outright misinformation.

I would like to know whether the people on this thread who oppose COVID vaccination because it isn't 100% safe also do not take Paracetamol or Ibuprofen when they have a headache. Because neither of those drugs is 100% safe for everyone to take - and like any other medication, you won't know that you are one of the minority for whom it isn't, until you take it.

Yep I take ibuprofen for pain relief. It had been around a long time before I ever took it. And I made that decision being aware of the possible risks. And that's the point. Making an informed CHOICE. Its up to us if we take it. We should get to decide either way without being threatened with our jobs

@pointythings

JassyRadlett you deserve a Mumsnet medal for your consistently courteous, patient and scientifically sound approach in the face of so much wilful ignorance and outright misinformation.

I would like to know whether the people on this thread who oppose COVID vaccination because it isn't 100% safe also do not take Paracetamol or Ibuprofen when they have a headache. Because neither of those drugs is 100% safe for everyone to take - and like any other medication, you won't know that you are one of the minority for whom it isn't, until you take it.

Your post is interesting as you are asking if people opposed to covid vaccine (which isn't what this thread is about, but anyway...) would take things like ibuprofen. It's, like any medication, a risk v benefit thing. People use things like ibuprofen in these kinds of threads as it's very easy to get hold of but if you have asthma for example it's really not recommended. Every single one of us should absolutely make our own decisions as to what medicines or vaccines we put in our bodies. We are all entitled to make the risk v benefit decision for each and all medication we take.

I would like to think no one would think someone was anti medication because they wouldn't use ibuprofen.

But this thread is about mandatory vaccines. And the ease we seem to accept them scares me. I strongly oppose mandatory vaccination. And by restricting peoples employment, jobs often held for many years it is making them mandatory by the back door.

Informed consent should be the gold standard. Not "well I need to feed my family so have no choice".

"Yep I take ibuprofen for pain relief. It had been around a long time before I ever took it. And I made that decision being aware of the possible risks. And that's the point. Making an informed CHOICE. Its up to us if we take it. We should get to decide either way without being threatened with our jobs"

Yes, precisely. Some people on this thread appear to not understand the concept of personal choice when it comes to medicines & vaccines

@Fordian

I perform cardiac imaging.

I'm fully vaxxed but I am alarmed at the number of quite young, otherwise fit people who developed heart problems after their Covid vax.

Can we just focus on this please??

A HCP, fully vaxxed, who is aware of what sounds like multiple young fit people who have developed heart problems since having the vaccine. Not an anti vaxxer

And there's a load of you saying that people who don't want the vaccine are selfish??? Well sorry if we don't want f**King heart problems!! How inconsiderate of us.

Get off your high horses please, be mindful of information like this and respect our choices. We all have a right to them.

@Hariboqueen1 perfectly put 👏

@LMonkey

So if you get COVID really bad do you expect the NHS to give you an ICU bed??

Your being more ridiculous as your posts go on

[quote myheartskippedabeat]@LMonkey

So if you get COVID really bad do you expect the NHS to give you an ICU bed??

Your being more ridiculous as your posts go on [/quote]
Yes in the same way that the NHS treats anyone else who comes in their doors without judging or discriminating against them because of their choices.

[quote myheartskippedabeat]@LMonkey

So if you get COVID really bad do you expect the NHS to give you an ICU bed??

Your being more ridiculous as your posts go on [/quote]
What particular post are you referring to?

Clearly you're choosing to ignore the validity of the last one. How convenient.

I could also end up in an ICU bed if I developed a heart problem dear.

[quote myheartskippedabeat]@LMonkey

So if you get COVID really bad do you expect the NHS to give you an ICU bed??

Your being more ridiculous as your posts go on [/quote]
Nhs don't get to decide who gets a bed based on whether they have had a vaccine or not or wherever they should have stopped smoking or had a better diet.

They treat people on the basis of their clinical need at the time.

As it should be. We cannot and should not ever withhold medical treatment because we disagree with decisions the patient has made. That's a scary rabbit hole to fall down

*@T*igger1001 couldn't agree more!

@SarahBop

I just wish people would open their minds. Most people that catch covid, will recover fully.

For me, part of the motivation for having the vaccine is that it helps to protect the more vulnerable.

Nevertheless, a little part of me was scared when I went for the jab. Like I'm scared when I get on an aeroplane. It may be the safest form of transport ever known to mankind, but when it's not, you really really really don't want to be on that plane. And that's what's uppermost in my mind, until we safely land.

Honestly though, if you actually read up about potential adverse effects you would never take an antibiotic again. Ever. You would never eat anything with peanuts in it. You would not touch alcohol. Need I go on...?

The COVID crisis is a bore. I'm sick of it. I hate all the restrictions it places on our daily lives. But it seems to me that the vaccine is the only way out of it, realistically. And for this approach to work, we need better uptake of the vaccine. This is why I want to persuade you to be less selfish.

Another problem is that (as evidenced earlier on this thread) people who are not used to interpreting scientific data or statistics are suddenly trying to do that, without any training in the multiple factors that make it impossible to reach the wild conclusions being touted on social media. It's absolute chaos.

[quote Alcemeg]@SarahBop

I just wish people would open their minds. Most people that catch covid, will recover fully.

For me, part of the motivation for having the vaccine is that it helps to protect the more vulnerable.

Nevertheless, a little part of me was scared when I went for the jab. Like I'm scared when I get on an aeroplane. It may be the safest form of transport ever known to mankind, but when it's not, you really really really don't want to be on that plane. And that's what's uppermost in my mind, until we safely land.

Honestly though, if you actually read up about potential adverse effects you would never take an antibiotic again. Ever. You would never eat anything with peanuts in it. You would not touch alcohol. Need I go on...?

The COVID crisis is a bore. I'm sick of it. I hate all the restrictions it places on our daily lives. But it seems to me that the vaccine is the only way out of it, realistically. And for this approach to work, we need better uptake of the vaccine. This is why I want to persuade you to be less selfish.

Another problem is that (as evidenced earlier on this thread) people who are not used to interpreting scientific data or statistics are suddenly trying to do that, without any training in the multiple factors that make it impossible to reach the wild conclusions being touted on social media. It's absolute chaos.[/quote]
Yes I'm aware of that and honestly I am very fortunate not to take any prescribed medications - although I would prefer to use homeopathic remedies and natural alternatives over a prescribed medication, anyway.

Everything in life is a risk. Travelling in a car is far riskier than on a place; when you compare the amount of RTA's to plane crashes.

I'm very much of the opinion; you do you and I'll do me. The vulnerable people have had their jabs and boosters, so will 'be protected' anyway - I'm simply not going to put something in MY body, on the basis that I am doing so to protect someone else. That's not selfish, it's just evolutionary - survival instinct.

I won't be coerced into doing ANYTHING to my body that I don't want to do - be that a haircut, a beauty treatment, or being forced to take tablets or a vaccine. It is MY body and I have the right to make those choices.

For the record, I have had covid and developed antibodies. So be interesting to know what people think about an unvaccinated individual whom has an immune system which fought off the virus, without the need for the vaccine. Should I still lose my job?? (The reason I was exposed to covid in the first place)

@JassyRadlett

You may want to look up the word "polio." Also Google the phrase "iron lung" and "leg calipers" whilst you're at it.

I can’t remember whether it was this thread or another one where I said how much of an eye-opener the pandemic has been for me on just how much people desire absolutes - either a vaccine is 100% preventive or it’s useless; masks must prevent all transmission or there’s no point; if there’s a low risk of transmission in a setting you may as well give up and allow high risks too.

I can absolutely understand the attraction of black and white, yes or no, right or wrong answers and certainty about what vaccination might look like in ten years’ time. However in a world where no vaccine has ever been 100%, we have a new, fast spreading disease to which precisely no one had immunity two years ago, and a fast-shifting picture on evidence, drug and vaccine development, the path over the next few years can’t provide anywhere near those levels of certainty.

I can certainly understand in a time when people have had so much control forcibly removed, and where no one can provide the guarantees or certainty they’re seeking, then a lot of people will both look to grab any control they can, and also look for someone to blame for the unavoidable uncertainty in which we’re all living.

I don't believe it's about absolutes at all.

I consider myself low risk (as does science) therefore the efficacy of the vaccine is irrelevant to me as I don't believe I'll get seriously ill from covid anyway. I may have already had it and not even know! Therefore the potential risks are more prominent to someone like me as I'm taking a risk, for something I don't consider risky

I have never had the flu jab for the same reason - I don't consider it particularly dangerous to someone my age and therefore have never felt the need to get it. The health service obviously agrees as I've never been invited for one.

I had the covid vaccine purely because my DD wanted hers as she has kidney issues, I wanted to support her - but had that not been the case I wouldn't have felt any urgency to get it.

Now if we suddenly had an Ebola outbreak I would take any vaccine offered, even if the efficacy was low - even if it was just knocked up in a scientists kitchen that very morning. I would consider the threat far greater and therefore worth the risk.

Whatever the rights and wrongs I strongly believe allowing governments to coerce people into taking a vaccine is very, very wrong; and I think peoples determination to be righteous in this matter (why are you so special? Blah blah) will lead us into dangerous territory. Not only because governments should not have the power to beat the public into submission with coercive tactics, but importantly, it will put the very people they're claiming to want to protect at much greater risk.

@lemmein That seems like a reasonable basis for a decision.

My comment was in response to a comment about a previous post criticising vaccines because ‘they’ve only ever cured smallpox’.

I stand by it, overall, though I make no claim to universality. I have seen such a surprising (to me) amount of commentary on ‘masks don’t eliminate risk, so we shouldn’t bother’, or ‘I was vaccinated and got Covid anyway, vaccines don’t work’, or ‘if someone is exposing themselves to any risk of infection, there is no point in trying to reduce their exposure in other ways (we’ve seen that one on this thread.)

Policy decisions and personal decisions must always be nuanced and based on many factors, but rarely in the pandemic have we been able to say with any certainty ‘x will do y’, and that seems to make many people very uncomfortable and more likely to reject the proposal as being worthless.

Not applicable to all situations, or to all individuals, obviously. But something I have observed and that has been an eye-opener for me (and I work quite a lot with behavioural scientists and economists so get a fair bit of exposure to the motivators for behaviours.)

[quote myheartskippedabeat]@LMonkey

So if you get COVID really bad do you expect the NHS to give you an ICU bed??

Your being more ridiculous as your posts go on [/quote]
Assuming that OP pays her National Insurance contributions then yes, she should get a bed. Can we stop pretending that healthcare is free, my monthly payslip tells me otherwise and I can't opt out of paying it so the NHS shouldn't be able to opt out of treatment.

"I don't believe it's about absolutes at all.

I consider myself low risk (as does science) therefore the efficacy of the vaccine is irrelevant to me as I don't believe I'll get seriously ill from covid anyway. I may have already had it and not even know! Therefore the potential risks are more prominent to someone like me as I'm taking a risk, for something I don't consider risky

I have never had the flu jab for the same reason - I don't consider it particularly dangerous to someone my age and therefore have never felt the need to get it. The health service obviously agrees as I've never been invited for one.

I had the covid vaccine purely because my DD wanted hers as she has kidney issues, I wanted to support her - but had that not been the case I wouldn't have felt any urgency to get it.

Now if we suddenly had an Ebola outbreak I would take any vaccine offered, even if the efficacy was low - even if it was just knocked up in a scientists kitchen that very morning. I would consider the threat far greater and therefore worth the risk.

Whatever the rights and wrongs I strongly believe allowing governments to coerce people into taking a vaccine is very, very wrong; and I think peoples determination to be righteous in this matter (why are you so special? Blah blah) will lead us into dangerous territory. Not only because governments should not have the power to beat the public into submission with coercive tactics, but importantly, it will put the very people they're claiming to want to protect at much greater risk."

⬆️⬆️⬆️ one of the sanest and most rational posts I have read on this issue to date 👌🏻

I agree Lillifer. So if people may chose to have or not have the covid vaccine, can we please drop the NHS coercion and snark about the childhood imms: MMR, triple, Hib etc. Whilst my dc were vacc'd I really didn't appreciate the dictatorial, I'll informed nonsense. My hv " oh I dunno about the impact of giving so much to an 8 week old baby, I only know what's printed in the leaflet". Wholly unacceptable but she was only 23, yet still thought she cd dictate to a grown woman in her 30s whilst having zero knowledge about any published evidence based research. And she was called Karen .

Err.. how is that a sane and rational post?

1. The poster is selfishly saying she didn’t feel the need to get the vaccine despite the evidence that it reduces the risk of transmission to others who remain vulnerable. God forbid her daughter catches covid from some unvaccinated person. She might change her tune then.

2.Nobody is being coerced. The NHS have required staff to be vaccinated for all kinds of things for many years to protect patients and nobody has kicked up a fuss. When doing research for them in 2018 I was required to get my MMR jab before being allowed anywhere near a patient waiting room. If you are not willing to do what you can to protect patients then please don’t work with them.

1. What’s the point of the flu jab comment??Yes the NHS don’t think it’s necessary for you to have a flu jab so they haven’t invited you for one. But they HAVE invited you for a covid jab.

🙄

All the people saying 'I pay my national insurance, the NHS isn't free'
Any idea how much a bed is for one night ?
£hundreds.

The problem with people not having the flu jab is that approximately half of all flu infections are asymptomatic - so you can have it, feel perfectly fine and spread it to vulnerable people. G
iven that there are very, very few reports of major issues with the flu vaccine, why would you not have it to protect people more vulnerable than you are? You can call that 'evolutionary', but I'd call it selfish.

The COVID vaccine also reduces the risk of spread - so why would you not do this to protect the society you are a part of? If you want to be 'evolutionary' and think only of yourself, go and live off the grid somewhere.

And aside from all that, I'm 53. I've had real, proper flu three times in my life. It was incredibly shit. How many people refusing the flu vaccine have actually had real flu?