To the non-vaxxers who work for the NHS- do we have a leg to stand on?

[LMonkey]

So it's looking like vaccines will become mandatory for all NHS workers from April next year...where on earth can we go fro here?
I really dont want to get in to a vaccine debate. I have strong feelings as to why I don't want the vaccine. I'm a med sec and don't see any patients any way, or go anywhere near them. But regardless of this I strongly feel NOBODY should be forced to have any vaccine. Do we have a leg to stand on? I mean it's not lawful to force an employee to have a vaccine but if the government make it compulsory for nhs staff is there any way round it do you think? This really is causing me enormous amounts of stress. I really don't know what to do (please don't anyone say "get the vaccine"). I'd love to hear from others in the same boat or from a legal standpoint.

@Mybalconyiscracking

Just have the vaccine, what makes you so bloody precious?

Yes I don't understand it at all

If you want to work in a nursing home or the nhs eg with vunerable people

Why is the expectation to be vaccinated such an issue

Go and work somewhere else if you don't like it

Why is the expectation to be vaccinated such an issue

Vaccines have never cured anything except smallpox which arguably after hundreds of years could also have been cured by better hygiene.
If you’re so confident about it why do others need it to protect you?
How many medications and vaccines have adverse side effects, how many have ruined peoples lives but the long term effects aren’t realised until too late.
Vaccine damages list was updated to include the covid vaccine before it was even approved.
Why was it the elderly and vulnerable at risk but now everyone, including children and healthy adults expected to have 3 Vaccines to have a normal life.
I would rather take my chances on a virus with a 99% survival rate than have an injection with no known long term side effects every couple of months. I’m willing to sacrifice my job, my travel, my social life to protect myself and my human rights.

@LMonkey Please don't 'just leave' your job. Stick it out.

Let them force you.
I mean after April, and not without a fight.
Don't make it easy for the powers that be to dictate these infringements on our society. Where will it end?

The talk of vaccine passports, banishing unvaccinated humans from certain venues/jobs and parts of society. Hmm all seems a bit familiar, doesn't it.

They will U-Turn. Don't worry, there are lots of us that can see the big picture here and the comparison to the segregation that's happened in history

@myheartskippedabeat Yes I don't understand it at all

If you want to work in a nursing home or the nhs eg with vunerable people

Why is the expectation to be vaccinated such an issue

Go and work somewhere else if you don't like it

Because it is the principle behind it all.
WHY should someone in power, dictate what someone else can do with their body.
They spent months telling us to stay indoors, made it ILLEGAL for us to see or hug our loved ones!!!! And they're trying to make out they have our best interests at heart??? Really??

I love living in a diverse society; one where democracy is challenged and not just blindly accepted and followed.

This thread is anti-vaxxer central.
Vaccines don't work
Vaccines have never worked
Vaccines are harmful
People who don't take vaccines are brave.

I refuse and yes, for that exact reason. Could have the 'flu' vaccine and still catch flu anyway, so I don't see the point in wasting a vaccine on myself.

I find this such an interesting perspective, and one I really do try to understand as I personally look at level of risk reduction and I’ve come to understand that others don’t approach it in the same way.

Do you have a threshold for vaccine effectiveness after which it becomes worthwhile to you - ie is it at a point where prevention is near-guaranteed, rather than at the 50-60% (lower for flu vaccine some years obviously) reduced risk of infection?

I’m not being goady - it’s a perspective I’m honestly trying to understand and in particular to understand how people calculate the ‘it’s worth it’ threshold.

@lemmein

Honestly, I don't think people realise how shit workers in care often have it. They work for minimum wage, unsocial hours, deal with bodily fluids, are often abused - had PPE withheld during the height of the pandemic, a lot of them are on zero hour contracts - this largely isn't an amazing role people are lining up to do; so blackmailing them with 'have the vaccine or lose your undervalued/paid job' is hardly a plan destined for success. All it will do alienate workers more, they'll think 'fuck this! I'll apply to Tesco instead'.

I've worked in care - it's relentless and the only thing that kept me there was guilt, I enjoyed supporting residents - but at the end of the day it was JUST a job. If I was anti-vaxx, or vaxx reluctant the obtuse 'have the jab or fuck off' rhetoric of the health secretary would just make me leave. Which is fine, it's a choice (in the very loosest sense of the word) - but WHO do you think will replace them?

What percentage are you willing to sacrifice? 10%? 20%? 50%? How many elderly patients will be forced to bed-block because the care homes are understaffed (or closed?) I'd be very careful about blindly following the government on this - it'll be catastrophic for an already failing system. The intentions may be good but this policy will not benefit the vulnerable. If people don't want to have the vaccine they can do what has been sufficient for the last year - hygiene/PPE/LFT's - or do these things not work anymore?

Thank you. It is nice to see others that are concerned about the bigger picture and the effect this will have on the people that matter - the patients and the mental health of existing staff (who are already broken as they were unstaffed, unappreciated and underpaid before the pandemic )

@MareofBeasttown

This thread is anti-vaxxer central. Vaccines don't work Vaccines have never worked Vaccines are harmful People who don't take vaccines are brave.

You forgot to capitalise random words so we know exactly how strongly you feel.

They spent months telling us to stay indoors, made it ILLEGAL for us to see or hug our loved ones!

Meanwhile they’re tacitly making it illegal for my kids and many others to see and hug their loved ones thanks to the bonkers ‘single vaccine for children’ bollocks, denying them the ability to travel to many countries without lengthy quarantine because they’re not considered fully vaccinated. No space for parental choice.

We’ve all been quite screwed over by the pandemic in different ways. One person’s horror at one set of rules creates problems for another - there are many very uncomfortable trade offs.

(Still making no comment on this specific issue, still mainly there for the cut and pasting of evidence on how actually yes, vaccines do prevent transmission…)

@JassyRadlett

I refuse and yes, for that exact reason. Could have the 'flu' vaccine and still catch flu anyway, so I don't see the point in wasting a vaccine on myself.

I find this such an interesting perspective, and one I really do try to understand as I personally look at level of risk reduction and I’ve come to understand that others don’t approach it in the same way.

Do you have a threshold for vaccine effectiveness after which it becomes worthwhile to you - ie is it at a point where prevention is near-guaranteed, rather than at the 50-60% (lower for flu vaccine some years obviously) reduced risk of infection?

I’m not being goady - it’s a perspective I’m honestly trying to understand and in particular to understand how people calculate the ‘it’s worth it’ threshold.

Honestly, no.

I'm pretty sure I'm going to be an old lady that still doesn't want to take a flu vaccine and uses lemon and honey to soothe a cough...!!

I respect everyone's right to choose and think we should all ask more questions and not just jump when someone says... but I totally respect not everyone is wired the same

@MareofBeasttown

This thread is anti-vaxxer central. Vaccines don't work Vaccines have never worked Vaccines are harmful People who don't take vaccines are brave.

If you are unable to discern the difference between being anti vaccine and anti mandatory vaccine then you'd be better sticking to threads to which you can make a rational contribution.

[quote SarahBop]@myheartskippedabeat Yes I don't understand it at all

If you want to work in a nursing home or the nhs eg with vunerable people

Why is the expectation to be vaccinated such an issue

Go and work somewhere else if you don't like it

Because it is the principle behind it all.
WHY should someone in power, dictate what someone else can do with their body.
They spent months telling us to stay indoors, made it ILLEGAL for us to see or hug our loved ones!!!! And they're trying to make out they have our best interests at heart??? Really??

I love living in a diverse society; one where democracy is challenged and not just blindly accepted and followed.[/quote]
Why should they tell you what to do??

They pay your wages
They have a responsibility to keep people safe

Some people are just so stupid

@Lillifer If you are unable to see the many posts on this thread saying exactly what I said they said.. well... I won't be as rude as you but they are plainly visible.

@MareofBeasttown

This thread is anti-vaxxer central. Vaccines don't work Vaccines have never worked Vaccines are harmful People who don't take vaccines are brave.

Literally no-one has said any of those things.

I'm vaccinated, I'm not against vaccinations at all - I'm against mandatory vaccinations and passports.

*Why should they tell you what to do??

They pay your wages
They have a responsibility to keep people safe

Some people are just so stupid*

And some people are just rude and have to insult others to get their point across.

How are people not being kept safe...they are wearing PPE and doing regular LFT tests. The 'vulnerable' are vaccinated against the killer virus, so why the sudden move to make vaccines mandatory...?

@lemmein I really do not have time to cut and paste, but have a look at the more recent posts by @Clementineapples @SarahBop and whichever poster said vaccines do not reduce transmission. They are right there. I am not referring to you. Honestly....

Honestly, no.

I'm pretty sure I'm going to be an old lady that still doesn't want to take a flu vaccine grin and uses lemon and honey to soothe a cough...!!

I respect everyone's right to choose and think we should all ask more questions and not just jump when someone says... but I totally respect not everyone is wired the same

Thanks, I appreciate the frankness. Does that mean though that it’s a no to all vaccines? Sorry to press - just trying to understand if it’s a ‘balance of risk’ thing Ora straight out you’d rather not do vaccines as none are 100% effective.
Again, I really appreciate you answering. I find it helpful.

@myheartskippedabeat

*Why should they tell you what to do??

They pay your wages
They have a responsibility to keep people safe

Some people are just so stu
*
You can keep people safe with LFTS/PPE/Hygiene practices

Let's not forget the people who are pushing mandatory vaccines on care workers are the same people who willingly discharged covid positive patients back into care homes, rationed PPE to the workers, etc.

Nobody has answered my question about surgeons - would you fire 10% of surgeons who refused the vaccine?

If your child was unconscious would you check the vaccine status of the paramedic there to save their lives?

Let's not do another brexit and glibly support shit without thinking through the consequences - are you willing to give up your time to care for the elderly when all these workers are sacked? I would put a serious amount of money on this policy killing far more elderly patients than covid has done already.

Will the agency and bank staff workers the NHS regularly employs have to be vaccinated to? I'm willing to bet there will be a massive loop hole somewhere in it all.

I'm pretty sure I'm going to be an old lady that still doesn't want to take a flu vaccine grin and uses lemon and honey to soothe a cough...!!

But why?? We live in an incredible age of medicine and science, if you were born 500 years ago you would look at someone like you now and think you were mad. Let me guess, you won't take ibuprofen for a headsche etc, a modern medicine martyr, just baffled.

@Clementineapples

"Vaccines have never cured anything except smallpox"

You may want to look up the word "polio." Also Google the phrase "iron lung" and "leg calipers" whilst you're at it.

[quote MareofBeasttown]@Lillifer If you are unable to see the many posts on this thread saying exactly what I said they said.. well... I won't be as rude as you but they are plainly visible.[/quote]

"This thread is anti-vaxxer central"

Those are your words describing this thread and that is an inaccurate description (to say the least) of the various view points being put forward here. It's unhelpful to the discussion.

[quote Cailleach]@Clementineapples

"Vaccines have never cured anything except smallpox"

You may want to look up the word "polio." Also Google the phrase "iron lung" and "leg calipers" whilst you're at it.[/quote]
And see also ‘my uncle, dead of polio at the age of three’.

You may want to look up the word "polio." Also Google the phrase "iron lung" and "leg calipers" whilst you're at it.

I can’t remember whether it was this thread or another one where I said how much of an eye-opener the pandemic has been for me on just how much people desire absolutes - either a vaccine is 100% preventive or it’s useless; masks must prevent all transmission or there’s no point; if there’s a low risk of transmission in a setting you may as well give up and allow high risks too.

I can absolutely understand the attraction of black and white, yes or no, right or wrong answers and certainty about what vaccination might look like in ten years’ time. However in a world where no vaccine has ever been 100%, we have a new, fast spreading disease to which precisely no one had immunity two years ago, and a fast-shifting picture on evidence, drug and vaccine development, the path over the next few years can’t provide anywhere near those levels of certainty.

I can certainly understand in a time when people have had so much control forcibly removed, and where no one can provide the guarantees or certainty they’re seeking, then a lot of people will both look to grab any control they can, and also look for someone to blame for the unavoidable uncertainty in which we’re all living.

@itsallgoingpearshaped

Then find another job. It's part of the requirements of the job, as it should be as it's the health service and they have to set and example AND not contribute to making others ill unnecessarily, so find something else if you don't want to meet the requirements.

No. It's not a requirement of my HCP job to 'set an example'.