To the non-vaxxers who work for the NHS- do we have a leg to stand on?

[LMonkey]

So it's looking like vaccines will become mandatory for all NHS workers from April next year...where on earth can we go fro here?
I really dont want to get in to a vaccine debate. I have strong feelings as to why I don't want the vaccine. I'm a med sec and don't see any patients any way, or go anywhere near them. But regardless of this I strongly feel NOBODY should be forced to have any vaccine. Do we have a leg to stand on? I mean it's not lawful to force an employee to have a vaccine but if the government make it compulsory for nhs staff is there any way round it do you think? This really is causing me enormous amounts of stress. I really don't know what to do (please don't anyone say "get the vaccine"). I'd love to hear from others in the same boat or from a legal standpoint.

Honestly, I don't think people realise how shit workers in care often have it. They work for minimum wage, unsocial hours, deal with bodily fluids, are often abused - had PPE withheld during the height of the pandemic, a lot of them are on zero hour contracts - this largely isn't an amazing role people are lining up to do; so blackmailing them with 'have the vaccine or lose your undervalued/paid job' is hardly a plan destined for success. All it will do alienate workers more, they'll think 'fuck this! I'll apply to Tesco instead'.

I've worked in care - it's relentless and the only thing that kept me there was guilt, I enjoyed supporting residents - but at the end of the day it was JUST a job. If I was anti-vaxx, or vaxx reluctant the obtuse 'have the jab or fuck off' rhetoric of the health secretary would just make me leave. Which is fine, it's a choice (in the very loosest sense of the word) - but WHO do you think will replace them?

What percentage are you willing to sacrifice? 10%? 20%? 50%? How many elderly patients will be forced to bed-block because the care homes are understaffed (or closed?) I'd be very careful about blindly following the government on this - it'll be catastrophic for an already failing system. The intentions may be good but this policy will not benefit the vulnerable. If people don't want to have the vaccine they can do what has been sufficient for the last year - hygiene/PPE/LFT's - or do these things not work anymore?

lemmein

Totally take your point, it is a massive conundrum.

@sarah13xx

I’m vaccinated and correct me if im wrong but was the data not saying that the vaccine only protects the person themselves from the symptoms if they should catch covid? It doesn’t protect them from catching it or passing it on to others? Just struggling with the angle of how someone is putting their patients at risk by not being vaccinated if they can still have and pass on covid with the vaccine 🤔

Personally if I worked for the NHS I’d want to be vaccinated due to the exposure you might have but I do get that some people don’t want to be, the same way I didn’t when I was pregnant due to many unknowns. I do think the majority of people should get the vaccine if it’s the only way through this but people kind of are being forced if the alternative option is have no job when that’s what they’re qualified/skilled in 😕

Personally if I worked for the NHS I’d want to be vaccinated due to the exposure you might have

And this is exactly it.
It seems a lot of people that are pro-vax, are in the 'utterly terrified of covid' camp - convinced it will be the demise of anyone who catches it. That is not the case.
The virus has something like a 97-98% survival rate - almost everyone that catches it, will have it mildly.
I should imagine the ICU nurses jumped at the vaccine, because they have just been through the most horrendous 18m of their lives and have been left with PTSD - but there is another side to covid: People that are totally asymptomatic, people that fully recover, 80 yr olds with COPD that had no idea they had it until they were hospitalised for tripping over the dog and breaking a hip.

The unvaccinated within the NHS, are surely brave souls? They are literally willing to take their chances, trust their immune system to do it's job and are not scared to do so..and rather than that being their choice (and their right) they are being forced out like they are wrong for doing so.

Before the vaccine was made, those same staff had NO CHOICE but to be exposed to the virus - fearful that they may catch it and die. At that point, mainstream media was all about horror/deaths and devastation.
HCAs working within wards will be on approximately £9.82 an hour. They literally had NO CHOICE but to expose themselves to this, when the whole world was hiding indoors/furloughed or sunbathing.

A lot of the unvaccinated staff are probably covid recovered and will have antibodies anyway.

I just wish people would open their minds. Most people that catch covid, will recover fully. Lots won't even know they have it, some won't have more than a headache or a runny nose for a few days. Vaccinated or not, they are still catching and passing it.

Maybe the unvaccinated staff should be commended for their bravery, rather than bullied and told they are selfish.
Anyone that is in a patient facing role, is far from selfish.

Vaccinated or not, they are still catching and passing it.

Although of course their chance of catching it and passing it on is much lower if they are vaccinated.

Completely agree @SarahBop - we've completely lost all perspective on this.

There are many other precautions people can take to keep them and their patients safe without forcing a medical procedure on them.

I do wonder if the public are so glibly going along with this because of the low-status associated with the roles involved? If all the top surgeons in the UK were refusing would you want them to be sacked?

@SarahBop totally agree with you. Very well put. :)

As PPs have said, the evidence is the vaccine doesn't particularly limit spread. Particularly with delta which, as a variant that can escape the vaccine, is of course the dominant variant as the vaccinated can catch it and spread it alongside the unbaccinated, so it has plenty of people to spread to. Given this, why should vaccines be mandatory? I just can't get my head around the reasoning. Those who want them can have them and protect themselves from serious illness. Those who don't have them put only themselves at risk.

Never mind a mandatory vaccine policy completely ignores natural immunity as a result of prior infection, which would cover a lot of NHS workers.

If people can give me answers to those concerns and explain what I'm missing I would really love it. I would prefer not to feel like these policy decisions are illogical.

Now I have seen everything. The unvaccinated in the NHS are " brave souls". Health care workers in the rest of the world aren't making this kind of fuss, are they? I admit I haven't bothered to Google.

@lemmein

I really believe MPs and health officials should be forced (I mean, 'encouraged' )to share their vaccine status - it would be interesting to see how many are following their own advice.

Hahhahhah!! They couldn't even follow the horrific isolation and stay indoors rules that they put the rest of the UK under. Eg Barnard castle..Matt snogging his aide etc.

There's no way those bastards have our best interests at heart.

As PPs have said, the evidence is the vaccine doesn't particularly limit spread.

Can you share this evidence, please @Jenala?

The current evidence is that, even with delta, the UK vaccines prevent the majority of infections. The picture on secondary transmission is mixed, with potentially no reduction in household secondary transmission but studies out of the US and the Netherlands suggesting overall secondary transmission reduction against delta of up to 63%.

I’ve posted links to sources multiple times upthread.

This is borne out by the dynamics of the current wave which is highly concentrated in younger teenagers (mostly unvaccinated) and the demographic of their parents (so likely to be close household contacts which has always been the highest risk of transmission.)

The misinformation being bandied about on this thread is quite exceptional.

@Jenala A lot of evidence has already been provided showing the vaccine DOES limit spread by the ever patient @JassyRadlett and others.

@SarahBop, so if anyone working for the NHS choosing not to get vaccinated is a brave soul, does this include for any vaccines?

@Bringonthepjs

As per my op, I do not want the covid vaccine

Literally most of the developed world has had it, none of us have turned into chip run lizards as far as i can see. We are having to have boosters now as vaccine effects are waning - I ask you again - what on earth do you think is going to be happening years down the line that is so dreadful and that only you and a few other 'sheep' can see?

This is ignorant.

Just because something is promoted as 'safe' doesn't mean it is, longer term.

Smoking..used to be fashionable - allowed on planes etc.
Asbestos - people had no idea of the dangers, until years later....

Respect the fact OP, and many others, don't want to put this in their bodies

just asking: are people ok wt unvaxxed tourists coming to the UK now that travel is opening up? After all, the vax does not limit spread.

@MareofBeasttown I almost live in hope that one day someone will respond with an amazing report I’ve not seen yet that totally blows all the other data out of the water.

Interestingly in my months going round the boards saying ‘no, that’s not true’, I’ve only rarely had to correct people saying the vaccines provide total protection. Occasionally overstating their effectiveness, particularly around the time of the alpha/delta crossover (understandable). They generally took the challenge in good part and admitted their errors, with one or two exceptions who were very zealous that the vaccines were near-perfect.

The ‘they don’t prevent infection or spread’ misinformation seems to have taken real hold as a result of lost nuance around the fact that breakthrough infections exist. That not all transmission is prevented has become ‘the vaccines only reduce symptoms and severity’.

The other big issues is not understanding that likelihood of breakthrough changes with exposure levels so much more likely with high case rates.

@MareofBeasttown

Now I have seen everything. The unvaccinated in the NHS are " brave souls". Health care workers in the rest of the world aren't making this kind of fuss, are they? I admit I haven't bothered to Google.

Well apart from the case taken to the European Court of Human Rights taken by Greek healthcare workers...

@MareofBeasttown

just asking: are people ok wt unvaxxed tourists coming to the UK now that travel is opening up? After all, the vax does not limit spread.

Totally fine with it, because I've been vaccinated

Well apart from the case taken to the European Court of Human Rights taken by Greek healthcare workers...

Some in Australia, too. So far they have been very unsuccessful.

@MissyB1

I wonder if these healthcare staff refusing the vaccine get their flu vaccine every year?🤔 And if they understand it’s not the same vaccine every time? One thing I’ve noticed is an astonishing lack of understanding about vaccines and how they work amongst some healthcare staff.

I refuse and yes, for that exact reason. Could have the 'flu' vaccine and still catch flu anyway, so I don't see the point in wasting a vaccine on myself.

Even if the vaccine was indisputably 100% effective and everyone accepted this, people still should have the choice to make about their own body free of coercion from their government.

I honestly think they’ll back track quickly, the nhs, the care homes, all struggling without people having to leave.
I know when my mum was in hospice, everyone who cared for her said they were upset because they loved their jobs but wouldn’t be getting the vaccine. I know a lot of nhs staff who are the same so I can’t imagine it will be sustainable long term.

@TreborBore

Despite giving patients medications on a daily basis; they have the right to refuse. Staff should have the right to refuse too. We shouldn't lose body autonomy/human rights, especially when we are fantastic and caring within our roles.

Staff who refuse a vaccine are not losing body autonomy or their human rights. If people are refusing to be vaccinated they are exercising their right to body autonomy.

Staff who refuse a vaccine are not losing body autonomy or their human rights. If people are refusing to be vaccinated they are exercising their right to body autonomy. Yes, but it's conditional. In this case, to keep ones employment/food on the table and a roof over your head. Not really morally fair, is it.

I guess the question here really is how far will you go. Are you so convinced that the vaccine is a bad thing that you are prepared to lose your job? You must feel incredibly strongly about this.

@NeverDropYourMooncup

Possibly, but they'll be 2m away from her in a big enough room and wearing ppe

I want to work at the hospital where you see this.

Medical secretaries are usually crammed in two to a room with just enough space to fit in two desks, two chairs, one shared filing cabinet and possibly a set of shelves. And other staff don't usually put on clinical equipment to drop off the bundles of files and the envelope with the tape (if it's not electronic).

You also have to get to the office in the first place, which involves walking in through the doors, along the corridors, in the lifts and sometimes walking directly through the clinic first. You have to go into a shared area to use the photocopier. You often need to take something into clinic or ask a question that cannot wait. Medical records people come in to collect files for admissions, other clinic appointments and to file the notes after they've been typed up and documents/test results added (not everything is done electronically in all places). There are meetings, helping out colleagues where they ask questions. There's leaving the office for lunch. Going back to the office afterwards. Speaking to people in person because not everybody has the ability to send emails and phone use in clinic isn't possible. Leaving the office at the end of the day to go home, travelling through the hospital and using the same lifts, corridors, stairs and doors that everybody else does.

You aren't in a little airtight bubble from 9am to 5pm. You cross paths with multiple people, both patients and staff, every single day. and that's even before you consider using public transport or a staff bus to get there or move between sites (as no secretary I've ever known would be paid enough to be able to afford the on site parking five days per week).

It's always been an inherently social job.

However, if there is a significant number of secretaries refusing to be vaccinated, they'll end up doing what was initially tried around 15 years ago - record things electronically and give them to overseas transcription services whilst the medical staff have to enter much of the communications themselves. Much cheaper and less risk from people wanting to wait 10, 15 or 20 years (so until retirement/not at all really) before taking steps to protect the other people they will be in close proximity to at every point of the day.

Not in my case. It can't be assumed that all med secs work in the same environment or even do the same job.

I am based in a building on the hospital grounds, but not the main hospital building. No patients enter our building. I work in a team in a big room, really well spaced out, all of us wearing masks the whole time we're there. Constant hand sanistising, always socially distanced. Deemed 'covid secure' by inspectors. Notes are all electronic. I WALK to work.

There is no way OP is telling the truth about where they work this is a typical anti vax narrative