To the non-vaxxers who work for the NHS- do we have a leg to stand on?

[LMonkey]

So it's looking like vaccines will become mandatory for all NHS workers from April next year...where on earth can we go fro here?
I really dont want to get in to a vaccine debate. I have strong feelings as to why I don't want the vaccine. I'm a med sec and don't see any patients any way, or go anywhere near them. But regardless of this I strongly feel NOBODY should be forced to have any vaccine. Do we have a leg to stand on? I mean it's not lawful to force an employee to have a vaccine but if the government make it compulsory for nhs staff is there any way round it do you think? This really is causing me enormous amounts of stress. I really don't know what to do (please don't anyone say "get the vaccine"). I'd love to hear from others in the same boat or from a legal standpoint.

Finding another job should be fairly straightforward I agree, but keep in mind that if the new work is not home based, a new employer may have covid policies of their own, such as staff paying for weekly COVID testing if not vaccinated.

@ftw163532

I'm fine for NHS workers who behave like this op has (both on the thread and offline) to be dismissed.

I don't think there should be a place for this kind of behaviour in the NHS.

You may well be until you need medical care and there's less staff to take care of you.

I assume all those castigating the OPs choices are going to volunteer themselves in care homes to make up the shortfall? If this goes ahead it'll be the biggest act of self-harm inflicted on healthcare (apart from brexit of course) The government is thick but not that thick - they're basically playing chicken with workers - eventually the government will swerve, it'll have no choice.

@TreborBore

Finding another job should be fairly straightforward I agree, but keep in mind that if the new work is not home based, a new employer may have covid policies of their own, such as staff paying for weekly COVID testing if not vaccinated.

It’s a good point. My work has a policy that we must be vaccinated if we want to attend the office (we can work from home) and even if vaccinated, we have to have a negative lat flow within 24 hours before attending the office.

Realistically you can’t do your role if you never attend the office because we’re required for in person meetings so it’s essentially be vaccinated or find another job even if it’s not as explicit as the NHS.

We are not public facing and a very young work force. Average age is about 30.

Excellent post @Lilifer

@LMonkey
The government has backed down, as they always do. Look at what they have done previously.
It won't be enforced in the spring. I agree with this assessment

"I assume all those castigating the OPs choices are going to volunteer themselves in care homes to make up the shortfall? If this goes ahead it'll be the biggest act of self-harm inflicted on healthcare (apart from brexit of course) The government is thick but not that thick - they're basically playing chicken with workers - eventually the government will swerve, it'll have no choice."

Precisely

@Lilifer

"I assume all those castigating the OPs choices are going to volunteer themselves in care homes to make up the shortfall? If this goes ahead it'll be the biggest act of self-harm inflicted on healthcare (apart from brexit of course) The government is thick but not that thick - they're basically playing chicken with workers - eventually the government will swerve, it'll have no choice."

Precisely

Will be interesting to keep an eye on Australia as it’s already happening there. My brothers organisation has about 100 people not working as they’re refusing the vaccine.

I’d also point out that whilst Brexit was orchestrated by the government the public voted for it in spite of numerous experts predicting how bad it was be for the country. Almost like people ignoring experts talking about the value of vaccinations.

I wonder if these healthcare staff refusing the vaccine get their flu vaccine every year?🤔 And if they understand it’s not the same vaccine every time?
One thing I’ve noticed is an astonishing lack of understanding about vaccines and how they work amongst some healthcare staff.

[quote Pascal80]@LMonkey
The government has backed down, as they always do. Look at what they have done previously.
It won't be enforced in the spring. I agree with this assessment

[/quote] I'm not sure I would be quoting a guy who shares a platform with Katie Hopkins and is facing criminal charges for stalking women 🤔

I’m interested to know…you’re a med sec and don’t see patients.

So do you work at home and have no contact whatsoever with any other NHS staff? Or do you go into work where there are other staff who might also interact with others - nurses, clinicians etc - who see patients?

@over50andfab

I’m interested to know…you’re a med sec and don’t see patients.

So do you work at home and have no contact whatsoever with any other NHS staff? Or do you go into work where there are other staff who might also interact with others - nurses, clinicians etc - who see patients?

Possibly, but they'll be 2m away from her in a big enough room and wearing ppe.

Possibly, but they'll be 2m away from her in a big enough room and wearing ppe

I want to work at the hospital where you see this.

Medical secretaries are usually crammed in two to a room with just enough space to fit in two desks, two chairs, one shared filing cabinet and possibly a set of shelves. And other staff don't usually put on clinical equipment to drop off the bundles of files and the envelope with the tape (if it's not electronic).

You also have to get to the office in the first place, which involves walking in through the doors, along the corridors, in the lifts and sometimes walking directly through the clinic first. You have to go into a shared area to use the photocopier. You often need to take something into clinic or ask a question that cannot wait. Medical records people come in to collect files for admissions, other clinic appointments and to file the notes after they've been typed up and documents/test results added (not everything is done electronically in all places). There are meetings, helping out colleagues where they ask questions. There's leaving the office for lunch. Going back to the office afterwards. Speaking to people in person because not everybody has the ability to send emails and phone use in clinic isn't possible. Leaving the office at the end of the day to go home, travelling through the hospital and using the same lifts, corridors, stairs and doors that everybody else does.

You aren't in a little airtight bubble from 9am to 5pm. You cross paths with multiple people, both patients and staff, every single day. and that's even before you consider using public transport or a staff bus to get there or move between sites (as no secretary I've ever known would be paid enough to be able to afford the on site parking five days per week).

It's always been an inherently social job.

However, if there is a significant number of secretaries refusing to be vaccinated, they'll end up doing what was initially tried around 15 years ago - record things electronically and give them to overseas transcription services whilst the medical staff have to enter much of the communications themselves. Much cheaper and less risk from people wanting to wait 10, 15 or 20 years (so until retirement/not at all really) before taking steps to protect the other people they will be in close proximity to at every point of the day.

@Teaandcakeordeath83

I'm a fully vaxxed NHS worker and believe that ALL vaccines should be mandatory unless there is a medical reason you can't have one. That said- until they make all childhood vaccinations mandatory, like in some states/ countries where you have to prove your child is vaccinated to access public schooling, I don't think they should be doing the same with covid vaccines. As an adult I'd rather work with someone unvaccinated against covid than have my kids around unvaccinated kids. 🤷🏼‍♀️

I think there may be a lot of push back from staff and managers on this op. The care industry is potentially losing up to 60000 staff in the next fortnight. The NHS and the care industry is already chronically understaffed. I don't know where the govt thinks we are going to get the staff to replace all those who choose to remain unvaccinated. The cynic in me says they're trying to bring it to its knees faster...

It's all very well saying "unless there's a medical reason you can't have one" - but you have to consider that the vaccine, and many other prescribed medications, can CAUSE medical issues and horrific side effects in people.

I'm a frontline worker, but personally I live as holistically as possible.

I know many medications change and save lives for many patients, but I also know people that have had absolutely horrific reactions to medications (potentially fatal reactions) However, with a tablet..you can stop taking anymore once a reaction has occurred and hopefuly reverse any issues - with a vaccine, once it's in your body, it's in your body.
People have died from the covid vaccine. Blood clots, fertility issues, tinnitus etc..the list is endless and apparently only a tiny percentage of people actually use the yellow card scheme to report issues; so how many more have gone un-linked.

Despite giving patients medications on a daily basis; they have the right to refuse. Staff should have the right to refuse too. We shouldn't lose body autonomy/human rights, especially when we are fantastic and caring within our roles.

@Lobster2018

I can't believe the amount of horrid responses you've had here OP.

I totally see where you are coming from but sadly I do think you'll end up having to find another job, my DM is a practice nurse and she will be walking from the job the second the vaccine is made mandatory.

All the best

Why give up a career over this? I can't believe all these people are going to walking out. Geez. I've been vaccinated and had Covid and it was horrible. I don't know it would of been worse without the vaccine but it was bad enough with it. Is it just making a stand against being forced?

[quote RockinHorseShit]@CoffeeWithCheese

I had a bad reaction to my first vaccine, I had to go via my GP as I thought as it made me vomit badly, the pains i my legs were because that had aggravated kidney disease. It hadn't thankfully, but they still deemed it wasn't a good idea for me to have it again due to slightly raised blood clotting factor & the general bad reaction I had.

As a result my GP organised a different vaccine for my second jab & I had barely any side effects to that one & will get that for my booster too

Do speak to your GP, they can help you[/quote]
Glad you were okay.

Please say you reported the first reaction to the yellow card scheme, it is vital the figures are accurate and risks/side effects are noted.

People have died from the covid vaccine.

I think you'll find a lot more have died from you know, actual Covid. Stop spouting your anti vaxx crap.

@SarahBop
Because with important jobs comes important responsibilities. If some healthcare staff can’t accept that perhaps the job isn’t really for them?

Despite giving patients medications on a daily basis; they have the right to refuse. Staff should have the right to refuse too. We shouldn't lose body autonomy/human rights, especially when we are fantastic and caring within our roles.

Staff who refuse a vaccine are not losing body autonomy or their human rights. If people are refusing to be vaccinated they are exercising their right to body autonomy.

I used to work with raw sewage that came out of a sewer 'downstream' from Clatterbridge hospital. 10 miles from the tropical diseases experts in Liverpool.

My employer 'forced' me to have 3-monthly tetanus, typhoid and para-typhoid vaccinations. I'm left-handed, they wouldn't use my right arm. They hurt like buggery.
Did I refuse? No. Just glad they looked after my health.

While I worked there, there was a polio epidemic in the area, treated at Clatterbridge. We all got boosters. I know people who were badly affected by the disease. As did we all. We accepted gratefully.

For all communicable diseases herd immunity is a factor. Personally I've had German measles, measles, chicken pox and mumps, without any side affects. I was maybe lucky. DD was ebf. The daughter of the manager at my hall of residence had rubella before she knew she was pregnant. Her daughter was quite severely mentally handicapped .

DD had the MMR.

OP you work in a building full of vulnerable people.

You might be carrying covid, and walk past someone in a corridor and infect them, causing their death. Do you really want to do that to someone? Someone with a compromised immune system? An auto-immune disorder? Someone newly pregnant after 15 rounds of IVF?

Yes people have died from the COVID vaccine:
blog.ons.gov.uk/2021/10/04/how-many-people-have-died-as-a-result-of-a-covid-19-vaccine/

But the numbers are absolutely tiny compared to the numbers who have died and are continuing to die of COVID
www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/articles/coronaviruscovid19latestinsights/deaths

Yes @SarahBop I did report it straight away

My GP had a hell of a time organising a replacement jab for me though & it was very last second when I finally got it. Meaning I was CEV & last in our household to be fully vaxxed. Yellow card scheme didn't help at all though, didn't reply to queries etc, but contacting AZ themselves actually did thankfully push things forward

Too many people don't understand statistics or risk factors @TreborBore.

@Bringonthepjs

People have died from the covid vaccine.

I think you'll find a lot more have died from you know, actual Covid. Stop spouting your anti vaxx crap.

Yes, more people have died from covid than from the covid vaccine but that does not negate the fact that some people have died from the vaccine. These are not mutually exclusive facts you know.

A tiny tiny proportion have died, a risk I was willing to take when I made that decision for myself weighing up all the facts. As it should be. My body, my choice, my decision.

It is not anti vax to discuss the reality that some people have died from the vaccine, it is only anti vax if you exaggerate or falsify the proportion of deaths from the vaccine.

And to clarify I make the decision to take the vaccine and have my 5 teenaged kids vaccinated too, and they have had all other childhood vaccinations

I had some concerns but I took a measured view.

Are we really going to take that choice from people, because it's not a free choice if the threat of losing their job hangs over them