To the non-vaxxers who work for the NHS- do we have a leg to stand on?

[LMonkey]

So it's looking like vaccines will become mandatory for all NHS workers from April next year...where on earth can we go fro here?
I really dont want to get in to a vaccine debate. I have strong feelings as to why I don't want the vaccine. I'm a med sec and don't see any patients any way, or go anywhere near them. But regardless of this I strongly feel NOBODY should be forced to have any vaccine. Do we have a leg to stand on? I mean it's not lawful to force an employee to have a vaccine but if the government make it compulsory for nhs staff is there any way round it do you think? This really is causing me enormous amounts of stress. I really don't know what to do (please don't anyone say "get the vaccine"). I'd love to hear from others in the same boat or from a legal standpoint.

Also, am wondering if they will be asking all patients to be vaccinated and only then will they be able to use the service? No, they wouldn’t, so you would never know which patients are vaccinated and which are not and they would all be in together. Now how different is that to having unvaccinated staff? Utter twats they are honestly.

How easy do you think it is to just go out and get another job??

Actually a good secretary should probably easily enough get another job. The labour shortage is quite bad.

I am opposed to mandatory jabs for all NHS staff, fwiw.

@Getyourarseofffthequattro

Oh shut up *@SaskiaRembrandt* you clearly don't know what you're on about. We struggle to recruit ANYWAY.

I'm not an anti vaxxer, I've had all my vaccines.

Oh, I'm hurt, sniff. I'll just shuffle off and shut up. Sorry I offended you.

Okay, maybe not ...

The bigger issue is we have a virus that has the strength to kill and have the world on its knees. One of the things that's managing that is vaccination. The government has to look at the bigger picture ie herd not individuals and in doing that it has been determined that people in high risk roles ie nhs/social sector need to be vaccinated to reduce risk of death to the vulnerable. No one should be forced to be vaccinated so maybe you need to look for work in a different sector. This will protect you as a non vaccinated person and the vulnerable.

@sarah13xx

I’m vaccinated and correct me if im wrong but was the data not saying that the vaccine only protects the person themselves from the symptoms if they should catch covid? It doesn’t protect them from catching it or passing it on to others? Just struggling with the angle of how someone is putting their patients at risk by not being vaccinated if they can still have and pass on covid with the vaccine 🤔

Personally if I worked for the NHS I’d want to be vaccinated due to the exposure you might have but I do get that some people don’t want to be, the same way I didn’t when I was pregnant due to many unknowns. I do think the majority of people should get the vaccine if it’s the only way through this but people kind of are being forced if the alternative option is have no job when that’s what they’re qualified/skilled in 😕

You're wrong.

You haven't offended me you've just made yourself look like a fool.

Perhaps you should do some research before asserting your opinions as facts.

I suspect the “monetary reward” comes in the form of the lovely gold standard pension nhs staff get at the end of it all.

That would be the £704 a month I get after 39 years service then.

@LMonkey

17:30Muchtoomuchtodo

@LMonkey, Can you tell us more about your reasons for not having the vaccine?

There are unarguably reasons as to why we should question any vaccine, especially this one. This is a vaccine which was rushed. There's no long term data for it. We have no idea what effect it will have on peoples bodies 10, 15, 20 years down the line. WE KNOW people have died from blood clots. I know 2 people myself. Fit , healthy, young people. WE KNOW it can cause myocarditis in younger people. It's also clear as bloody day THAT IT DOES NOT STOP TRANSMISSION. If people are happy to accept it, to protect THEMSELVES from extreme disease, then by all means have it. That's your choice.I dont want it.

You do realise the risk of getting a blood clot from pregnancy was way higher but you decided to do go a head and get pregnant.

In terms of looking for another job, you have 5 months and we are at a point in the UK where we have a high number of unfilled posts across many sectors so its easier to get a new compared to 3 years ago. Good luck job hunting.

Presumably, you came here for practical info so I’m going to stick to that rather than debate vaccines.

Do you have a leg to stand on legally: No. mandatory vaccines in order to do certain job roles is well established practice. There is no Infringement of your human rights by requiring a vaccine to perform a certain job.

You can debate the morality of that basic fact all you like, but it doesn’t change it.

Now then, a one woman social uprising isn’t likely to change the fact that vaccines may well become mandatory for NHS staff, so we need to focus on your genuine choices here.

Your choices are: set your fears aside and, like 105m people in the UK, get vaccinated. If those 105m people, so far 9 have died. Here’s a quote from the yellow card scheme if you’re unsure about that number for any reason:

‘statistical agencies have reported that to August 2021 (June 2021 in Northern Ireland) there were 4 deaths in England, 0 deaths in Wales, 4 deaths in Scotland and 1 in Northern Ireland. Of these, 4 in Scotland and 1 in Northern Ireland had the vaccine as the underlying cause of death. This meant that there were 9 deaths in the UK that involved the vaccine (meaning the vaccine contributed to the death), of which 5 had the vaccine as the underlying cause (meaning the vaccine initiated the chain of events directly leading to the death). For these deaths, there was evidence to suggest that the vaccine played a part in the chain of events that led to the death.’

That’s a death rate of 0.00000857%, or 1 in 11.6 million. For reference, your chances of dying from being struck by lightening are 1 in 138,000 so about 307 times more likely than dying from the covid vaccine.

However, if you still believe this is a big enough risk that you would rather give up your livelihood as a single parent and put yourself through finding a new job with children to support, then you need to make that decision because you will not be able to do your job in the future without the vaccination.

The job market is really really strong at the moment, there’s tons of jobs going in a range of fields so if you’re absolutely certain you will not get the vaccine, then now is the time to start job hunting.

@Getyourarseofffthequattro

You haven't offended me you've just made yourself look like a fool.

Perhaps you should do some research before asserting your opinions as facts.

Ooh, I'm really hurt now. Double sniff.

Where should I do I my research? I'm using JSTOR but do you have a better source?

I'm guessing you're published in the Lancet, BMJ and the Nursing Times, otherwise you're just assuring your opinions as fact.

Asserting not assuring, fuck off spell checker

She’s a secretary and doesn’t habe patients.
But she does mix with people who do have patients.

Yes you are being forced.
If it was a condition of employment when you were offered your job then yes, you have a choice. Job or no job.

To suddenly introduce this while already in their employment and say you will lose your job or else. The yes, you are absolutely being forced.

It’s pretty scary that people think otherwise. Heaven help them if they have a relative in a care home or they themselves end up in hospital.

@SaskiaRembrandt first hand experience of covering several posts at once, jobs going to advert over and over again.... It isn't my opinion. I don't think that these posts aren't filled, they simply aren't filled.

105m people in the UK

There aren’t 105m people in the U.K.

No, it's a forum, not social media.

Discussion forums are a form of social media.

I think you mean social networks like Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn. They’re another subset, as are curation networks and sharing networks. The boundaries can be quite fuzzy though.

@Conflictedboobs

Presumably, you came here for practical info so I’m going to stick to that rather than debate vaccines.

Do you have a leg to stand on legally: No. mandatory vaccines in order to do certain job roles is well established practice. There is no Infringement of your human rights by requiring a vaccine to perform a certain job.

You can debate the morality of that basic fact all you like, but it doesn’t change it.

Now then, a one woman social uprising isn’t likely to change the fact that vaccines may well become mandatory for NHS staff, so we need to focus on your genuine choices here.

Your choices are: set your fears aside and, like 105m people in the UK, get vaccinated. If those 105m people, so far 9 have died. Here’s a quote from the yellow card scheme if you’re unsure about that number for any reason:

‘statistical agencies have reported that to August 2021 (June 2021 in Northern Ireland) there were 4 deaths in England, 0 deaths in Wales, 4 deaths in Scotland and 1 in Northern Ireland. Of these, 4 in Scotland and 1 in Northern Ireland had the vaccine as the underlying cause of death. This meant that there were 9 deaths in the UK that involved the vaccine (meaning the vaccine contributed to the death), of which 5 had the vaccine as the underlying cause (meaning the vaccine initiated the chain of events directly leading to the death). For these deaths, there was evidence to suggest that the vaccine played a part in the chain of events that led to the death.’

That’s a death rate of 0.00000857%, or 1 in 11.6 million. For reference, your chances of dying from being struck by lightening are 1 in 138,000 so about 307 times more likely than dying from the covid vaccine.

However, if you still believe this is a big enough risk that you would rather give up your livelihood as a single parent and put yourself through finding a new job with children to support, then you need to make that decision because you will not be able to do your job in the future without the vaccination.

The job market is really really strong at the moment, there’s tons of jobs going in a range of fields so if you’re absolutely certain you will not get the vaccine, then now is the time to start job hunting.

What’s happened to all the other deaths that were reported on the yellow card scheme?

This blood clot argument doesn’t hold water. My husband treats critically ill Covid patients and their blood is very clotted due to Covid. If you’re avoiding the vaccine for that reason then you’re inviting in another far bigger and better way of getting blood clots.

My husband has to have other vaccines besides Covid, he just accepts it as part of the job - it’s not a big deal at all. But he does obviously understand more than non medics about the medical advances behind it and is so impressed by the scientists that made this possible. Vaccination has certainly completely changed the stresses on his department thankfully.

@BoredZelda

105m people in the UK

There aren’t 105m people in the U.K.

Apologies, that’s number of doses. It’s 50 million people vaccinated, and 9 deaths. So a death rate of 0.000018% or 1 in 5.5 million. You are 14 times more likely to be struck by lightening.

Not sure how I can be an anti vaxxer when I’ve had both of mine and am not yet eligible for my booster but never mind.

My point still stand though, the NHS vacancy has just been advertised for the second time due to lack of applicants. I’ve got the relevant experience, an enhanced DBS and can start work immediately. However I’m not applying for it because the pay is bloody awful. If even a fraction of current staff leave, how will it be possible to recruit for those roles as well as all the others currently vacant. The NHS isn’t an attractive employer for admin staff and it can’t function properly without them.

This is a vaccine which was rushed. There's no long term data for it. We have no idea what effect it will have on peoples bodies 10, 15, 20 years down the line.

Show me the data from any vaccine that has been proven to have long term detrimental affects.

Reported and confirmed deaths are different. A family can report that the vaccine was the cause of death to yellow card, but it is only considered a death due to the vaccine when a doctor or post Morton confirms the vaccine was indeed a contributing factor. It’s similar to the ‘died of’ or ‘died with’ argument for covid deaths.

[quote Getyourarseofffthequattro]@SaskiaRembrandt first hand experience of covering several posts at once, jobs going to advert over and over again.... It isn't my opinion. I don't think that these posts aren't filled, they simply aren't filled.[/quote]
And I didn't say the NHS didn't have a problem with recruitment, I said that problem wasn't due to the Covid vaccine. It predates the vaccine and given the pro-vaccine attitudes amongst NHS medics is unlikely to be made better or worse by the Covid vaccine.

Non medics may differ.

OP I haven't read every post here but I get the gist of a lot of it.
I would feel the same as you. You are not in a patient facing role and I can't understand why they have decided to make it mandatory for you and others. Sorry, I don't know if you have a leg to stand on or not; you are in a very awkward situation - I hope you have some colleagues in the same boat to talk things through with.

Did you have to have other proof of vaccine status to get your job? I did. I e just added this to the list,