To the non-vaxxers who work for the NHS- do we have a leg to stand on?

[LMonkey]

So it's looking like vaccines will become mandatory for all NHS workers from April next year...where on earth can we go fro here?
I really dont want to get in to a vaccine debate. I have strong feelings as to why I don't want the vaccine. I'm a med sec and don't see any patients any way, or go anywhere near them. But regardless of this I strongly feel NOBODY should be forced to have any vaccine. Do we have a leg to stand on? I mean it's not lawful to force an employee to have a vaccine but if the government make it compulsory for nhs staff is there any way round it do you think? This really is causing me enormous amounts of stress. I really don't know what to do (please don't anyone say "get the vaccine"). I'd love to hear from others in the same boat or from a legal standpoint.

Unfortunately you must have known where this thread would go. I imagine you won’t have much choice and the NHS will lose good staff like the care sector already are.

I am not anti vax but believe people should be allowed a chose especially when even the worst statistics they can show us are that an unvaccinated person is 38% likely to spread virus and unvaccinated 25%. It’s not even really a vaccine is it as it doesn’t stop you getting covid or spreading it.

Luckily there appears to be a huge shortage of labour (down south at least) so finding another job shouldn’t be a problem. I would start looking now before you are forced out.

And I didn't say the NHS didn't have a problem with recruitment, I said that problem wasn't due to the Covid vaccine. It predates the vaccine and given the pro-vaccine attitudes amongst NHS medics is unlikely to be made better or worse by the Covid vaccine.

Yes and what were all saying is it will make the problem worse! Any extra condition of employment makes the problem worse because it makes the candidate pool smaller. What's so hard to understand about that? If we said you can only apply if you dye your hair red it would make the candidate pool smaller.

It's just an extra condition that will put people off applying who may have applied if that condition wasn't in place. It's not fucking rocket science.

Non medics may differ

Well yes I imagine they do considering they are not fucking qualified doctors and are in fact admin staff who could work anywhere.

The issue is that the NHS cannot run with just medics. I know the view of med secs is that they sit on their arses, occasionally answer the phone to be rude to someone and post the odd letter but it simply isn't true. Wards, clinics, departments wouldn't run without admin staff.

@JassyRadlett

No, it's a forum, not social media.

Discussion forums are a form of social media.

I think you mean social networks like Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn. They’re another subset, as are curation networks and sharing networks. The boundaries can be quite fuzzy though.

No forums predate social media by decades and are different because the interface is pretty static. I see MN much the same as you see MN. We can hide threads, but the interface is generic. On SM each user has their own page and their experience is different to every other user. E.G. my experience of Twitter would be very different to yours.

I agree that the boundaries are fuzzy, and some forums do verge into SM, but MN doesn't; it's very much an old school forum. It hasn't changed greatly since the early 00s.

Those saying you shouldn’t need it because you’re not patient facing: irrelevant whether she’s patient facing or not. She’s in a clinical environment working with clinicians, or working with people who work with clinicians. Unless she’s working in isolation or from home, she’s in contact with patients for a virology point of view. Saying she should feel put out because she’s not directly seeing patients is basically saying you don’t understand how viruses work. Either all staff who work in clinical environments should be vaccinated, or none of them should.

@Conflictedboobs

Those saying you shouldn’t need it because you’re not patient facing: irrelevant whether she’s patient facing or not. She’s in a clinical environment working with clinicians, or working with people who work with clinicians. Unless she’s working in isolation or from home, she’s in contact with patients for a virology point of view. Saying she should feel put out because she’s not directly seeing patients is basically saying you don’t understand how viruses work. Either all staff who work in clinical environments should be vaccinated, or none of them should.

Those patients presumably also go to supermarkets, hairdressers, beauty salons. Are they genuinely more likely to catch it third hand from a medical secretary who will still be social distancing at work, or any of those other people?

And obviously clinicians will go home, go to the supermarket, meet friends and not social distance or wear masks.

It's probably a bigger risk catching it from someone outside the hospital than someone inside who is never closer than 2m away from someone and has to sanitise every time they open a sodding door.

Whilst I see what you're saying, you could literally catch it anywhere.

OP- i think you are making the wrong choice not to be vaccinated, but its your choice. Your employer can put being vaccinated as a requirement for the job. Thats their choice. Legally you don't have much of a case, so the question is what to do next.

The good news is that PA and secretarial jobs are transferable skills and needed in pretty much every industry, so there's no need to stay in a medical role (unlike nurses or doctors who don't want to be vaccinated, most private hospitals are also going to require the jabs). Update your cv and get it to a few agencies, you aren't in a rush and can see what else is available. I'm looking for PA secretarial work at the moment and am limited because I want to work part time. If you are happy to work full time, there seems to be a lot of vacancies.

Honestly, it’s a form of social media by any definition of social media. Just because it was one of the earliest examples doesn’t mean it outlies the category or the term (which has also been around since the 90s.)

The two-way nature of it makes it social media - it’s not static broadcast at you; it’s sharing of content generated by users.

Reddit is social media, Livejournal, bless it, was and is social media, even IRC is considered a form of social media. It’s the commonly accepted definition, used in academia, industry and elsewhere. It’s sites and apps that enable the creation and sharing of content, which is exactly what we’re doing right now.

This content is totally irrelevant to the thread, though, so apologies everyone else.

Op

You do have some time to look for something new before then op but it might be tricky to continue as a medical secretary as most private practices will probably insist on vaccine as well.
I'd get your cv out there now early so you'll be settled in new role before April .

(I obviously have sources if needed, including for the slightly wild IRC claim. My commitment to providing sources is not limited to Covid vaccines.)

@JassyRadlett you are being so patient and polite in the face of extreme provocation. Your first post on this thread should be put at the top of the coronavirus topic and be required reading for the “but it doesn’t reduce transmission” brigade.

Anyway, here in Australia the vaccine mandate for health care workers has been challenged in court in a couple of states. Those challenges have failed thus far, with the judge in one case describing the argument as “very weak”. Unvaccinated staff have now been fired, but the numbers who held out ended up being very small, there was a last minute rush to comply.

I appreciate this is not in the UK, but our legal systems are similar I think.

Not the point. The point is hospitals are where vulnerable people gather and have no choice but to attend. A vulnerable person is likely to avoid supermarkets, hairdressers etc but cannot avoid a hospital hence that service user has a legitimate right to expect anyone working in that hospital environment to be vaccinated.

Hospitals are huge networks of people, a bit like schools are except hospital networks have a disproportionately high number of the very old, the very young and the vulnerable in them. A virus passes through a hospital incredibly quickly (I worked a long term rehabilitation ward one year when Noro hit it.. absolute carnage) just like it does in any other network; it’s just in hospitals the consequences could be devastating considering how many people will already be very very vulnerable.

Remember covid doesn’t have to even be severe to kill off someone already fighting for their life and anyone fighting for their life will be in a hospital.

@Conflictedboobs

Not the point. The point is hospitals are where vulnerable people gather and have no choice but to attend. A vulnerable person is likely to avoid supermarkets, hairdressers etc but cannot avoid a hospital hence that service user has a legitimate right to expect anyone working in that hospital environment to be vaccinated.

Hospitals are huge networks of people, a bit like schools are except hospital networks have a disproportionately high number of the very old, the very young and the vulnerable in them. A virus passes through a hospital incredibly quickly (I worked a long term rehabilitation ward one year when Noro hit it.. absolute carnage) just like it does in any other network; it’s just in hospitals the consequences could be devastating considering how many people will already be very very vulnerable.

Remember covid doesn’t have to even be severe to kill off someone already fighting for their life and anyone fighting for their life will be in a hospital.

It is the point. Clinicians are humans. They go home to their unvaccinated children. They go to the supermarket. They socialise.

So they might get really close to logs of other unvaccinated people. Or they might get 2m away from op whilst wearing ppe.

Tell me how it's different?

If op was patient facing, I'd agree. But she's not.

And yes tbh hospitals are disgusting places where you are more likely to get sick than anywhere else, but that's not a recent change unfortunately.

*How are they endangering their patients?

I'm vaccinated but I'm still able to get covid and pass it on!*

There have been studies that show the chances of passing on the virus are lower if you are vaccinated.

Aw, thanks @Ginandplatonic (love your username). I have been known to snap once or twice over the months but have tried to stay Little Ms Here Are Some Reputable Sources.

(Where in Australia are you? I’m a Queenslander in exile, hoping Annastacia might let us visit family some time next year but terrified we won’t vaccinate kids in the UK and so we’ll be locked out again…)

@Derbee

The NHS won't be for anyone if it's got no staff left. They won't be able to rely on it

There aren’t enough mindless idiots working for the NHS that it will collapse because staff leave over vaccines. Medical staff are generally more educated and intelligent than that. Admin staff can be replaced if they need to be.

Good riddance to those like OP

I'd rather "mindless idiots" than judgemental arseholes who don't understand how departments work. If only people were replaced as easily as you assume.

Oh and do you know how much these "medical staff" who are educated and intelligent get paid say on a band 2?

Because I imagine all the intelligent and educated staff will leave too to work elsewhere, somewhere where they don't get judged by two faced general public who looooooved them months ago and hate them now.

Ok. It’s different because if you’re vaccinated you are much less likely to pass covid on. Note I haven’t said ‘you can’t pass it on’, we’re talking in degrees of transmission here not absolutes, So, if she’s in contact with loads of unvaccinated people in the outside world, then by having the vaccine, she’s less likely to transmit covid back to the hospital environment. If all clinicians and non clinical staff are vaccinated, then hospitals are much safer places for patients and staff alike.

Also, you are much more likely to catch covid as an NHS worker than any other profession. By having the vaccine you’re reducing your chances of needing intensive hospital treatment, so by requiring those most at risk of catching covid to have the vaccine we significantly reduce the pressure on the service (it also helps to prevent that person from requiring long term sick leave due to covid, further reducing the strain on the service).

Ultimately it comes down to your chances of dying from covid vaccines: infinitesimally small. Chances of needing a new job if you refuse to have the vaccine: much higher. Pick which risk you think is higher.

@LMonkey I think the deaths/clots were mainly from the Astra Zeneca vaccine. That one isn't being used so much now, they've gone quiet about it. The risks from the other vaccines aren't as high from what I gather.

Some trusts etc/work environments already insist those working there have the Hep B vaccine.

I'm pro-vax but it's worth people trying to mount a legal challenge if they feel strongly about it. A lot of the Covid stuff is being overturned when challenged in court, at least on an individual level.

Have a look online and I'm sure you can find groups intending to challenge the compulsory jab for NHS workers etc.

@JassyRadlett I’m in Tassie. Honestly, although my lifestyle has benefitted massively from us being essentially COVID free this whole every state for itself, ever-changing border rules thing is getting ridiculous. The vaccine rates are really very high now - I think we just need to open up and let the chips fall. I hope you can visit your family soon.

Some disgusting replies on this thread. Yes of course you are being forced to inject something into your body you might not want. You're being forced because the other option is facing possible unemployment, homelessness and a variety of other negative consequences. This is regardless of whether or not one agrees with the policy. Refusal to recognise that some people are being pressured into putting something in their body for fear of negative consequences is pure pig headedness I think. In any other situation there would be uproar about bodily autonomy but clearly not when one finds themselves on the side of those who know best about what's right for another's body. Having said that I don't oppose the policy but I am highly sympathetic to your dilemma.

I typed a lengthy reply and it didn't post.

Perhaps it would make a very small difference, but clinicians leave the hospital and bring back germs just as they always have and always will.

I'm just not comfortable with saying have this procedure or lose your job. I feel like there should be a middle ground. I say that as someone who's had the vaccines and had no ill effects.

If it could be proven that it makes a phenomenal difference for patient safety then perhaps, but it won't be because it won't.

Excellent, the “get educated” brigade have arrived to join the “wake ups”. @Winter2019 may I suggest you educate yourself - JassyRadlett’s posts on this thread are an excellent place to start and provide links to sources.

And when people ask, why not get the bloody vaccine? Errrr.. cause it's not been tested enough,they've come up with it fairly quickly and some of us are not sheep