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Original poster

Furlough and annual leave

175 replies

HunterHearstHelmsley · 27/05/2021 22:03

During the first two lockdowns, my workplace furloughed for childcare reasons. There was more than enough work, and we are key workers. It was a good will gesture from my employers.

We are just finalising summer annual leave. As a 'carrot', those not furloughed have been given annual leave priority for the next 2 years.

The shit is starting to hit the fan. I have 2.5 weeks book in the summer, October half term and Christmas - New Year booked. Its fairly similar across the board for others with priority. Parents are now insisting that our leave be cancelled so they can take the time. Unions are being involved and management are having conversations.

Am I correct in thinking that our leave cannot be cancelled in order for someone else to take it? I understand leave can be cancelled with double the amount of notice. Is this for only business critical reasons or can it be to give someone else the leave?

Currently I am only away for 1.5 weeks of the time I have booked (it's mainly to spend time with family children). I would consider swapping the time I have off, but I would want either extra pay or leave to do so.

OP posts:

Watapalava · 30/05/2021 14:33

Maybe she should take it when the others with young kids are expected to take it?

CovidCorvid · 30/05/2021 14:49

I'm really shocked by the attitude on this thread.
Children deserve to have some relaxed time with their parents over the holidays. The OP has booked the majority of her annual leave during the school holidays

The children had months and months of relaxed time with their parents during furlough. Which was a time when the OP wouldn’t have been allowed to see her nieces and nephews...does she not deserve to see them and spend time with them!

SunflowerOwl · 30/05/2021 15:39

At my workplace they can cancel your leave technically as long as they give the correct notice but as far as I know they have never and would never do it to give it to someone else. That's very poor form.

If you cant have June and July off then the school holidays are your only option if you want a break with the best chance of nice weather which nobody can blame you for, same with christmas. I'd maybe compromise by giving up half of the October week if it were me.

Sucks for the parents but that's not for you to worry about.

lakesummer · 30/05/2021 15:55

There is just far too much annual leave needing to be taken, the workplace will probably need to carry some over, pay for some and perhaps some will just be lost.

The workplace will then need to come up with a strategy for leave that doesn't penalize any specific group, their current strategy is penalizing parents.

Parents aren't a protected characteristic but women are. So if the majority of people who had furlough for childcare reasons were female and they now had second choice with annual leave that could be legally challenged.

The management have been very negligent and set themselves up for problems from all sides.

CovidCorvid · 30/05/2021 16:38

Dd lost all her annual leave as did everyone else at her company. Her company just shrugged and said you’ve had months and months off while being paid, suck it up. I’m fairly sure that’s not right but your colleagues at least aren’t having to argue they’re allowed any.

UserEleventyNine · 30/05/2021 16:49

So if the majority of people who had furlough for childcare reasons were female and they now had second choice with annual leave that could be legally challenged.

What if the majority of staff who were not furloughed and worked throughout are also women?

TeacupDrama · 30/05/2021 16:52

you could be forced to take leave during the furlough period but annual leave legally needs to be paid at 100% not 80% of wages: some companies did pay their staff X number of weeks full pay just to ensure the whole staff where not due 13 weeks AL the next year

lakesummer · 30/05/2021 17:07

@UserEleventyNine my understanding is that if the company employed only women then there wouldn't be case for discrimination but if more men weren't furloughed then there would be.
This wouldn't need to be in the immediate team but the organization as a whole.

So if there was one team mostly women who did front line work say and the women with children were furloughed and those without weren't you could still look to bring a sex discrimination case if the company as a whole had more men in other roles who continued to work and now got to choose annual leave.

It would be a numbers game throughout the whole organization not just one team.

Roodicus21 · 30/05/2021 17:17

I'm a parent and yanbu. You worked throughout lockdown, your colleagues were furloughed so not working, but looking after their children whilst schools were closed. I worked throughout lockdown and homeschooled so in my eyes you should get priority on using some of the annual leave that you accrued and couldn't take as there was nobody to cover you. Now that they're back they should cover you.
They can do whatever one else does and book and pay for holiday clubs.

JingleCatJingle · 30/05/2021 17:26

I’m a parent too and YANBU.
The parents had the furlough time with their family while you slogged your guts out.
Holiday clubs are running this summer, let them use those.
Hope you get your leave OP

CovidCorvid · 30/05/2021 17:46

@TeacupDrama

Sounds like the company have messed up twice...firstly by allowing people to have furlough when there was still a business need for them to be working which has resulted in resentment and burnt out staff from the non furloughed people. Secondly by not doing as above and making them take their leave during furlough.

As someone said earlier the company will have saved a lot of money by furloughing staff. They’ve put their profits over employee relations.

SuperSecretSquirrels · 30/05/2021 17:58

There are two simple solutions to this:

your employer can get get additional staff in to backfill and provide some additional capacity to let more staff take leave.
you can vote with your feet and leave, and get paid for all your accumulated holiday.

FWIW I wouldn’t have thought you were being selfish, as only 2.5 weeks of your leave is during school holidays, so seems very reasonable. But your often-articulated attitude of wanting others to suffer really sucks.

Original poster

HunterHearstHelmsley · 30/05/2021 19:19

I do not want anyone to suffer. Not once have I said that. The reason I'd be willing to give some of it up for extra pay is that I don't want it to be seen as the easy option. Also, whilst I may be willing to give some of it up, others may not be so willing and we are trying to be united.

I do resent being called selfish, however. Not one of us kicked up a fuss last year. We accepted people were doing what they felt they needed to do. Even though at times, I don't believe it was a need. It wasn't my place to moan about that though, I didn't know the ins and outs of people's circumstances. We knuckled down and got the job done.

I did feel like I should maybe give up a week, if it would work with my family. Some of the comments on here have made me realise that give and take isn't expected, it should just be give and give from certain 'types' of people.

OP posts:

emeraldcity2000 · 30/05/2021 21:08

Can see both sides here.
Op, it's clear you do feel some resentment towards colleagues. I homeschooled and worked. It was tough. A lot of 4am starts and 11pm finishes. We got through but it was exhausting.
I had colleagues who claimed to be key workers- the definition was pretty wide by the last lockdown. We're not. But I could have fudged the definition for sure. But isn't the point that we were supposed to try to stay home and stop the virus spreading? So if your colleagues had not taken furlough and , instead, sent their kids to school they would have been doing the wrong thing. I'm not sure they deserve to be punished for it.
Maybe they had a wonderful time and were taking the piss. Who knows? I don't think most people's Facebook accounts tell the full story though. And a lot of families need some time together now. By all means take what was offered to you but don't assume all your colleagues are chancers who won't suffer for not being able to take any time as a family for the next 2 years.

Peppapeg · 30/05/2021 22:09

And a lot of families need some time together now

OP wants time with their family too, who they haven't seen properly in ages. That's important too.

emeraldcity2000 · 31/05/2021 07:56

@Peppapeg

And a lot of families need some time together now

OP wants time with their family too, who they haven't seen properly in ages. That's important too.

Agree, that's why I said I could see both sides.

The holiday she isn't using to see family (that she would trade at the right price) seems to be justified by the fact she thinks she already did something for them so she deserves this. My point was the parents also did the right thing by taking furlough. Imagine if they'd claimed a key worker space instead when they didn't need to.

She should be angry with management for a poorly thought through plan, not the parents who did the right thing for the pandemic.

StealthPolarBear · 31/05/2021 08:06

I get it op, you felt dumped on all thtough the lockdown periods dealing with higher workload while your colleagues were home with their children, and now you're expected to change all your annual leave booking to a time that doesn't suit you so those same people can have time off with their children.

StealthPolarBear · 31/05/2021 08:07

And as for the fact she'd be willing to trade for the right price, as she says, she's sick of being dumped on, of all the flexibility going in other directions but never hers.

Sillyduckseverywhere · 31/05/2021 08:25

@StealthPolarBear

And as for the fact she'd be willing to trade for the right price, as she says, she's sick of being dumped on, of all the flexibility going in other directions but never hers.

That's the issue normally, it only goes one way. When you finally call in a favour, or something goes your way, it gets snatched back.

emeraldcity2000 · 31/05/2021 09:17

@Sillyduckseverywhere sure, I get that. But this isn't normality. The flexibility the other parents had wasn't free time off to hang out with their kids. It was keeping everyone at home so thousands of people didn't die.... how could they possibly have justified making any other choice once furlough was offered?

Sillyduckseverywhere · 31/05/2021 09:25

[quote emeraldcity2000]@Sillyduckseverywhere sure, I get that. But this isn't normality. The flexibility the other parents had wasn't free time off to hang out with their kids. It was keeping everyone at home so thousands of people didn't die.... how could they possibly have justified making any other choice once furlough was offered? [/quote]
Ignore the furlough issue.
Why does she not get to spend her holiday how she sees fit? Why is she not entitled to that time off to spend with her family?
Why is she and her holiday choice less important?

emeraldcity2000 · 31/05/2021 09:26

@Sillyduckseverywhere I'm not saying it's less important, I'm just saying I don't think it's necessarily more important either.

Sillyduckseverywhere · 31/05/2021 09:29

[quote emeraldcity2000]@Sillyduckseverywhere I'm not saying it's less important, I'm just saying I don't think it's necessarily more important either. [/quote]
There's no problem then and she should get to retain her holiday.

emeraldcity2000 · 31/05/2021 09:33

@Sillyduckseverywhere but at the moment it's being treated as more important isn't it?

WTFisNext · 31/05/2021 09:34

As a working parent who struggled like hell through the lockdown if I'd been given the option of full pay furlough for childcare reasons but the trade off was lower priority for holidays this year I'd have snapped their hand off!

I think it's fair you get first priority. Not having children doesn't mean you don't get to spend time with much loved family. Frankly your company are lucky you haven't burnt out because of the additional pressure you've absorbed.

Really hope you get to keep the important holidays booked so you can enjoy time with your family. I'm afraid I don't know the legal aspect to offer any advice from that perspective.

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