Furlough and annual leave

[HunterHearstHelmsley]

During the first two lockdowns, my workplace furloughed for childcare reasons. There was more than enough work, and we are key workers. It was a good will gesture from my employers.

We are just finalising summer annual leave. As a 'carrot', those not furloughed have been given annual leave priority for the next 2 years.

The shit is starting to hit the fan. I have 2.5 weeks book in the summer, October half term and Christmas - New Year booked. Its fairly similar across the board for others with priority. Parents are now insisting that our leave be cancelled so they can take the time. Unions are being involved and management are having conversations.

Am I correct in thinking that our leave cannot be cancelled in order for someone else to take it? I understand leave can be cancelled with double the amount of notice. Is this for only business critical reasons or can it be to give someone else the leave?

Currently I am only away for 1.5 weeks of the time I have booked (it's mainly to spend time with family children). I would consider swapping the time I have off, but I would want either extra pay or leave to do so.

Being a parent of school aged kids does not mean you are above or more entitled to holidays than people who do not have school aged kids. Not even in summer holidays or term times. Mind you, it doesn't stop alot of ppl from behaving like they are more entitled. I get that childcare can be an issue or whatever...I had school kids myself...but first come (to book leave) first served...with/without kids. People without kids or with kids past schoolgoing age need holidays same as everyone else...not up to entitled parents to dictate when they should take them.

As for OPs work situation...if everyone, furloughed & remaining workers alike, bought into the agreement re priority holidays for those remaining on the job then that is how it should be regardless of term times or whatever other inconvenience pops up now for others returning to work. It shouldn't make a jot of difference why OP wants holidays at that particular time...or any time. If they are booked, so be it. Whether it is to spend time with family or go to the moon...no-one's business exvept OP's so shouldn't require explanation or justification to colleagues (who happen to be parents) who would like to have the same leave dates but didn't book it. Nothing to prevent a one to one approach & see if a compromise is possible but if those dates are important to OP for whatever reason...then OP is entitled to say No & take those dates as holidays.

[quote DancingQueen85]@HunterHearstHelmsley
Yeah those kids are really fucking selfish wanting to spend time with there parents. Clearly your far more important,
Absolutely no reason why you couldn't get some rest by taking holiday outside of term time [/quote]
This is irrelevant to the OP. Other people’s childcare / holiday wishes are not OPs concern. She’s entitled to take her holiday when she desires / is convenient to her.
I’m sick of people saying they should have priority for holidays because they have kids.
There’s no way the OP should cancel her leave for people that come across entitled.
Unfortunately your employer has caused an issue here. I hope however they sort it out you’re not negatively impacted in terms of when you can take your holiday.

Legally your employer is on very dodgy grounds. A policy that has a disproportionate negative impact on parents is discriminatory. They've not thought this through at all.

I agree that those without their own children should have equal right to those with children, but in this case they appear to have a greater right.

I hope you get your holidays as booked, but the employer does need to revisit their policy and make sure those without children are not adversely impacted.

• those with children are not adversely impacted.

The reason I'd be willing to swap for more pay or leave is because I don't want to have to give it up again. Without those weeks I'll be left with random wet weeks in November. I don't see why I should just have to accept that.
That is complete rubbish. You have only booked 2.5 weeks during the school summer holidays - the rest that you have booked are "random wet weeks" in October/December and January. You could book June (heatwave predicted), September (often some of the best weather), or most of July (also as good as it usually gets in the UK). Anyway, that wasn't the reason you gave anyway - it wasn't about giving up the best weather, you said it was about spending time with nieces and nephews. Shifting ground somewhat? But still prepared to give up that really valuable time with your nieces and nephews for extra pay and/or holidays. Sorry, but your reasons are hollow - this really is about being selfish. If there was any rationale to your arguments you wouldn't be willing to give up those dates for anything. And most of the weeks you want won't be nice sunny days anyway in late autumn and winter.

As for those who think a lockdown with children and homeschooling is a "free holiday", they should be ashamed of themselves. Nobody has had a free holiday.

FWIIW, if this rowing continues I would have total sympathy with this employer saying they would resolve the problem by allocating everyone fixed holidays by a draw, then everyone can be pissed off together. The employer is perfectly entitled to tell everyone when they will be allowed to take holiday.

I can't believe people are saying these parents deserve more time off with their children, they've just been off with them for months! OP stand your ground. And I say that as a single parent!

How sad that this situation has pitched furloughed against unfurloughed. Again.

I have sympathy with both sides.

And how shocking that OP's employer had such little regard for staff wellbeing that OP has accrued 62 days leave through not taking any last year. Whether that was OP's choice, or business need, it wasn't supportive to her wellbeing.

I am an academic and we have set periods when we MUST and CANNOT take annual leave. We must take it during university closure days (even if they aren't the same as school holidays - the Catholic schools often go right up to Maundy Thursday even if we have the day off) and we can't take half term as it's in uni term.
It's normal to have this type of prescription.

@BoomChicka

I can't believe people are saying these parents deserve more time off with their children, they've just been off with them for months! OP stand your ground. And I say that as a single parent!

I can't believe that a parent is saying that. A pandemic lockdown is not "time off with your children" and, as you well know, parents are not allowed to remove their children from school for holidays anyway, so their choices for holidays are much more limited than everyone else. And they weren't "just off with them for months" - they had been furloughed for some time during the first two lockdowns. They haven't just had a year plus off work!

Some people are very angry about those who had furlough.

I can't imagine how people with primary aged DCs managed to work and home school - hats off to you - but I don't blame people for taking furlough if it was offered to them.

Also whilst school was available for DCs in key worker roles, people were getting very mixed messages and not encouraged to take it. In some cases if you could wfh the key worker schooling offer was withdrawn. People may have had real fears about their DCs getting long covid.

I just think it's a rubbish situation all round. Of course DPs want to take their work time off in the school holidays and of course those who have been working through and have a huge surfeit of holidays want to take it when it suits them. I just think it was a bit unwise of management to have promised this and not to have thought about the issues it would cause.

Our work reneged on allowing people to carry forward more than a week - I got two because our project was such a mess - but they've been strongly encouraging people to take time off even during first quarter on mental health grounds they say, but mostly because it will be a nightmare if everyone ends up back ending their holidays.

I have to say once we no longer take DS with us on holiday my preference will be for June and September, but everyone's circumstances are different.

@Orf1abc

Legally your employer is on very dodgy grounds. A policy that has a disproportionate negative impact on parents is discriminatory. They've not thought this through at all.

I agree that those without their own children should have equal right to those with children, but in this case they appear to have a greater right.

I hope you get your holidays as booked, but the employer does need to revisit their policy and make sure those without children are not adversely impacted.

My employer's policy disproportionately affects those with children and (in a small way) Catholics. I don't think the employees would have a leg to stand on if they challenged it frankly.

@LEMtheoriginal

So your company furloughed people that didn't need to be furloughed, as a "goodwull" gesture?

So basically took advantage of the government scheme to pay their employees and save a shed load of money, whilst increasing the pressure on those who remained?

I wonder how many other companies did this and how much it cost the government (us, in the long run?)

Im sorry but was that even legal??

Yep, my company did the same. But it was not even disguised as for childcare. I worked extra 10 hrs min extra a week for free to try and keep up with the work and also took a pay cut for the privilege. All the time having FB. Posts from some of team saying how bored they were at home. I have had to keep my mouth zipped as I think it was so unfair. I honestly think those that stayed at work do deserve some sort of perk we have had no recognition at all.

So OP if they promised priority leave that’s the least they could do.
Although why they allowed you to carry over quite so many I do not know, ours dictated we had to take or sell them and now have a policy of using x amount each quarter no matter whether you want them or not as we had chaos Sept-Dec to fit everyone else’s hol time. furloughed people complained about having to take hol in furlough (and then paid 100%).

This thread makes for poor reading. Companies taking advantage. Plus, not having the foresight to think things through.

@Soontobe60

The parents can use all the money they saved from the childcare they didn't have to pay for last year whilst furloughed to pay for childcare this year

@Moondust001

The reason I'd be willing to swap for more pay or leave is because I don't want to have to give it up again. Without those weeks I'll be left with random wet weeks in November. I don't see why I should just have to accept that. That is complete rubbish. You have only booked 2.5 weeks during the school summer holidays - the rest that you have booked are "random wet weeks" in October/December and January. You could book June (heatwave predicted), September (often some of the best weather), or most of July (also as good as it usually gets in the UK). Anyway, that wasn't the reason you gave anyway - it wasn't about giving up the best weather, you said it was about spending time with nieces and nephews. Shifting ground somewhat? But still prepared to give up that really valuable time with your nieces and nephews for extra pay and/or holidays. Sorry, but your reasons are hollow - this really is about being selfish. If there was any rationale to your arguments you wouldn't be willing to give up those dates for anything. And most of the weeks you want won't be nice sunny days anyway in late autumn and winter.

As for those who think a lockdown with children and homeschooling is a "free holiday", they should be ashamed of themselves. Nobody has had a free holiday.

FWIIW, if this rowing continues I would have total sympathy with this employer saying they would resolve the problem by allocating everyone fixed holidays by a draw, then everyone can be pissed off together. The employer is perfectly entitled to tell everyone when they will be allowed to take holiday.

Am I not allowed to prioritise myself in this?

The week in October is half term. The week in January is my birthday. I also have limitations around when I take take leave due to certain projects. For example, I can't take the last 2 weeks of June and first two weeks of July off. Everyone will have restrictions because of projects but it differs depending which ones you are working on.

The plan last year was to spend time doing trips and having days out with my youngest nephew before he starts school in September. Obviously that didn't happen (for everyone, I know I'm not unique!) I won't be able to do that in term time now.

It probably is a bit selfish to say I'll swap for more leave or more pay. But there are a group of us who are always expected to be flexible and fit in. As someone upthread said, our wellbeing hasn't been considered. I'm knackered!

The organisation were allowed to furlough for childcare reasons so I don't believe they have done anything wrong. I'm not sure about it being discriminatory however. Those furloughed haven't carried across their annual leave. I'm not sure who's decision that was. There was someone on maternity who has and has been given the same leave choices as those of us who worked throughout.

Your employer would be really unfair to cancel your leave. It should be prioritised!

Ignore @DancingQueen85. You have every right to want to see your loved ones.

As for those who think a lockdown with children and homeschooling is a "free holiday", they should be ashamed of themselves. Nobody has had a free holiday.

March-July there was only a few weeks of home schooling as schools reopened in May.
The rest of the summer whilst furlough continued (most people were furloughed well into September) had 6+ weeks of "summer holidays" on the taxpayers dime whilst the OP continued to work. If that's not a free holiday I don't what is???

@Inanun2

We just couldn't take it. There was no meat on the bones at all. Literally everyone who could requested furlough. Who wouldn't at 100% pay?!

I've worked extra hours too. I would regularly take a break from 4pm until 7ish then log back on for the evening.

@HunterHearstHelmsley

I think perhaps all those that continued to work OP should have stood their ground with your employer and said you'd be doing your hours and no more. If they had so much workload that they couldn't manage then parents should have been returned from furlough/asked to work from
Home especially during "school Holidays" when no home schooling would have been required

Parent could request furlough for childcare but there was no obligation to be granted it

I imagine every parent with a child Up to the age of 18 at your workplace requested furlough for "childcare" reasons 🤣

Your employer has benefited hugely as it has had 80% of its wage bill paid for several months and over worked the rest of you and so saw presumably no decrease in profit or turnover?

@andivfmakes3
What are you talking about? Schools only opened in June for certain year groups, the majority were not back until September.
I'm not sure why you started this thread OP, seeing as you are so certain that you are in the right and aren't prepared to consider other opinions.
It is quite clear from what you have said that you are taking the leave during the holidays primarily out of resentment for your colleagues who were furloughed. This is selfish and very unkind to the children involved who will now presumably be spending the summer in childcare without a holiday.
I expect your work presumed when they offered the priority for holiday booking that people wouldn't be dicks about it and would consider their colleagues. Clearly they misjudged the situation and I doubt they'll be making that mistake again.

[quote DancingQueen85]@andivfmakes3
What are you talking about? Schools only opened in June for certain year groups, the majority were not back until September.
I'm not sure why you started this thread OP, seeing as you are so certain that you are in the right and aren't prepared to consider other opinions.
It is quite clear from what you have said that you are taking the leave during the holidays primarily out of resentment for your colleagues who were furloughed. This is selfish and very unkind to the children involved who will now presumably be spending the summer in childcare without a holiday.
I expect your work presumed when they offered the priority for holiday booking that people wouldn't be dicks about it and would consider their colleagues. Clearly they misjudged the situation and I doubt they'll be making that mistake again. [/quote]
I started it as I wanted to know if I had any rights.

I'm taking the leave when I want to fit my family.

@HunterHearstHelmsley

And so you should

What's selfish is parents feeling entitled to priority 2 years in a row

What happened in lockdown 3 OP - were all the parents furloughed again or did they work from home?

[quote andivfmakes3]@HunterHearstHelmsley

And so you should

What's selfish is parents feeling entitled to priority 2 years in a row

What happened in lockdown 3 OP - were all the parents furloughed again or did they work from home? [/quote]
Working from home with paid time off if a bubble burst.

So by your rule DancingQueen85 only parents with primary school children are allowed time off which coincides with school holidays - does that not seem a little unreasonable and selfish to you ?

Op is only taking 2.5 weeks in school holidays which out of the 12 weeks she has accumulated does not sound unreasonable to me.

I’m a single parent to a disabled child and have worked full time throughout the pandemic. I work in a sector where we can only take holidays during certain blocks of the year and this does not always match up well with my DC’s holidays.

It was my choice to have a child and it’s my choice to work where I work. I don’t feel any more entitled to leave at certain times of year than any of my colleagues. They also have lives and wider families and things they want to do at certain times of year which are no more or less important than my priorities. Totally with the OP on this one.

Having said that, OPs company have definitely handled this badly and set themselves up for a problem.

Btw, I think the word ‘furloughed’ is being misinterpreted here. My cousin works for a supermarket who furloughed staff who wanted to be furloughed because of domestic reasons that would have made working complicated / dangerous for them. I think it was restricted to 10 weeks in most cases. Afaik, they were on full pay and the company, not the government, paid for it all.

Some incredibly entitled and bitter sounding parents on this thread imo.