Furlough and annual leave

[HunterHearstHelmsley]

During the first two lockdowns, my workplace furloughed for childcare reasons. There was more than enough work, and we are key workers. It was a good will gesture from my employers.

We are just finalising summer annual leave. As a 'carrot', those not furloughed have been given annual leave priority for the next 2 years.

The shit is starting to hit the fan. I have 2.5 weeks book in the summer, October half term and Christmas - New Year booked. Its fairly similar across the board for others with priority. Parents are now insisting that our leave be cancelled so they can take the time. Unions are being involved and management are having conversations.

Am I correct in thinking that our leave cannot be cancelled in order for someone else to take it? I understand leave can be cancelled with double the amount of notice. Is this for only business critical reasons or can it be to give someone else the leave?

Currently I am only away for 1.5 weeks of the time I have booked (it's mainly to spend time with family children). I would consider swapping the time I have off, but I would want either extra pay or leave to do so.

@HunterHearstHelmsley
Yeah those kids are really fucking selfish wanting to spend time with there parents. Clearly your far more important,
Absolutely no reason why you couldn't get some rest by taking holiday outside of term time

I hope you get what has been promised, you have just as much right as anyone to want weeks off to suit your needs and this year you've truly earned it. Don't let anyone guilt you into giving it up.

This sounds like a right old management cock up that will leave many staff pissed off. I agree that if you’ve been offered it then you should keep it.

I'm still confused.

Why did they furlough anyone?

The company was busy, they were key workers, childcare was available?

(I'm not in the UK, hence me asking this) but was it not illegal / against the rules to furlough in that case?

Regardless, I don't think the two are aligned. It's simply not fair to prevent staff taking leave at key family time just because they were furloughed.

I don't either think you've done anything wrong OP, you're just going along with what's offered.

[quote DancingQueen85]@HunterHearstHelmsley
Yeah those kids are really fucking selfish wanting to spend time with there parents. Clearly your far more important,
Absolutely no reason why you couldn't get some rest by taking holiday outside of term time [/quote]
I'm not trying to punish anyones children.

Shall we take it to the nth term and say the children can spend time with their parents in term time? That would be a ridiculous suggestion.

I want to take the time in the school holidays so I can spend time with the children in my family. If I take time off during term time I won't be able to spend time with them because they will be at school.

Are those kids "really fucking selfish" too?

DancingQueen all sorts of people without kids might want or need time off in school holidays. As a parent, I would be horrified if people who had no kids were prevented or restricted from taking leave in the "magic" 13 weeks. They could have close family who either attend or work at a school, a special event or anniversary, or any one of 10001 other reasons to want that ttime off. Having produced a child shouldnt have any baring on when you can take holidays, although where there is flexibility it is nice if others can adjust plans slightly.

[quote DancingQueen85]@HunterHearstHelmsley
Yeah those kids are really fucking selfish wanting to spend time with there parents. Clearly your far more important,
Absolutely no reason why you couldn't get some rest by taking holiday outside of term time [/quote]
It's attitudes like this that ensure parents (we all know It's mothers) are kept back in the workplace.
She worked her arse off to enable those parents to look after their children and not have to quit due to lack of childcare.
She obviously a terrible person and should shut up and put up.

@DancesWithDaffodils

DancingQueen all sorts of people without kids might want or need time off in school holidays. As a parent, I would be horrified if people who had no kids were prevented or restricted from taking leave in the "magic" 13 weeks. They could have close family who either attend or work at a school, a special event or anniversary, or any one of 10001 other reasons to want that ttime off. Having produced a child shouldnt have any baring on when you can take holidays, although where there is flexibility it is nice if others can adjust plans slightly.

Completely agree - I don't have any school-aged children but I am married to s teacher - am I allowed time off in school holidays or should I never be off at the same time as him?

In hindsight, the company maybe could have tried to avoid this massive bunching of leave requests by saying you have first dibs but not allowing it all to be taken in the summer or similar. But they didn't, and cancelling leave you've already booked and making you take it at less desirable times seems outrageously unfair.

@EarringsandLipstick

I'm still confused.

Why did they furlough anyone?

The company was busy, they were key workers, childcare was available?

(I'm not in the UK, hence me asking this) but was it not illegal / against the rules to furlough in that case?

Regardless, I don't think the two are aligned. It's simply not fair to prevent staff taking leave at key family time just because they were furloughed.

I don't either think you've done anything wrong OP, you're just going along with what's offered.

Technically, they didn't need to furlough anyone as childcare was available. It wasn't really as simple as that tough.

Some nurseries/schools wanted both parents to be keyworkers outside of the home.

My company were really laid back about it. If you wanted furlough for childcare reasons then you could have it. However, the workload hadn't decreased so they agreed that those who continued to work throughout could take their pick of leave dates due to the fact they were not able to take leave whilst the others were on furlough.

I can't say that childcare was definitely available. According to the rules it should have been.

I ended up taking 3 days leave from last year's entitlement of 30 days. I had carried over 5 from the year before (they were due to have been taken the last week of March when it all kicked off). That means I have 62 days to take!

If they hadn't offered the incentive of priority leave then there would have been major pushback and furlough may not have been agreed.

My company were really laid back about it.

I bet they were laid back about getting the government to pay a portion of their wage bill while just getting other employees to cover the work, they'll have profited hugely!

Having read just how much leave they let you accumulate/hold over I do think they've handled it really badly, but that isn't your fault.

Ah thanks Hunter. That's much clearer!

I hear what you are saying.

In relation to you, you're not doing anything wrong & I completely disagree with posts suggesting your leave isn't as important as parents'

But I think the company have made a pig's ear of it, conflating issues.

The reward you get shouldn't have been regarding leave which really affects those with family responsibilities who might have been furloughed for that reason.

Another reward mechanism should have been found.

I do also think it's very unfair on you now, if you lose booked time. I would say it's a strong possibility tho 😟

I bet they were laid back about getting the government to pay a portion of their wage bill while just getting other employees to cover the work, they'll have profited hugely!

I didn't think about this. God, yes. What a duplicitous way to work.

@Hardbackwriter

In hindsight, the company maybe could have tried to avoid this massive bunching of leave requests by saying you have first dibs but not allowing it all to be taken in the summer or similar. But they didn't, and cancelling leave you've already booked and making you take it at less desirable times seems outrageously unfair

You're not wrong. As it stands, I have 62 days (12.4 weeks to book). In a normal year, I'd have 2 weeks in the summer, May and maybe October half term. Looking at the days I have booked currently, I still nearly 40 days to book. I don't want to book the odd days here and there. I want to take time off to spend with the people important to me.

If I was being awkward I could easily have requested the whole summer break. I just want to spend time with the children in my family.

I hate it when people assume because they are parents they should get privileged rights to holidays during school hols. Obviously access to holidays should be fair for all, including during school holidays.

I think your company would be very foolish to cancel your holiday in order to give to someone else, that would be very unfair.

The company has relied on you and others not taking your holidays last year to undertake the work of others allowed to furlough. They know this year will be hard as they need to facilitate more annual leave than usual and this may include a need for some additional temp resource. Ultimately they need to plot out capacity and how they can fit it all in whilst best meeting staffs desired times.

Thanks everyone for the responses. I totally understand why it may be an issue for people trying to cover school holidays etc. From my perspective it is incredibly frustrating that the goalposts may now move.

I don't want to carry over a bunch of leave to next year. It will just delay the problem. As I said, if I take all my booked leave I still have 40 days to take.

Surely parents with school aged children get to see them on evenings and the weekend/days off if shift workers. OP doesn't have that, as she doesn't live with the children she wants to spend time with. I know it's less fun than a week's holiday, and we all need one of those, but OP should be entitled to it based on the circumstances here.

I'm assuming none/very few of your colleagues have children in boarding school (which tend to have longer holidays anyway!)

I'm really shocked by the attitude on this thread.
Children deserve to have some relaxed time with their parents over the holidays. The OP has booked the majority of her annual leave during the school holidays preventing this from happening. They have also described furlough as some kind of holiday for the parents in question. Is no one on Mumsnet able to state that this was not the case at all?
Fair enough take a week or two in the school holidays but surely the rest of your annual leave could be booked at another time. Priori to having kids I absolutely understood the need for my colleagues with children to take time off in the holidays. Clearly the op deserves some annual leave but I am baffled by why so much time needs to be taken during the school holidays

This isn't the fault of either OP (who was promised unrestricted leave) or parents (who are going to have worked out their whole school holiday juggling based on normal leave patterns).

The workplace needs to sit down and find some compromise solutions, which will probably leave everyone feeling a bit fed up.

Next time the work place will be more sensible but I can see how they ended up in this mess.

I did kind of agree with where your coming from but only on the point that your boss promised you something

To be honest your boss is an idiot and actually what he’s doing is illegal as it’s pure ‘direct discrimination’ to bring in a policy that disadvantages certain groups eg parents. I expect he will lose the fight 100%.

That said I think it’s sad and a little mean to book leave in all the half terms. Parents don’t use this time to ‘have fun with their kids’ which is essentially what you want to do with your family members. They do this to provide essential care to their kids and avoid extra costs

For people to force parents to pay childcare so they can make their point is honestly nasty and nob head-ish behaviour imo

Honestly I would expect more support from colleagues

My teens are now 15&14 and I give up some holidays for those with primary age to save them child care fees

Thank god my colleagues don’t do what you suggest

The odd week of school holidays of course is fine and shouldn’t be frowned upon but you sound like you are booking them all

How selfish. Your trying to make a point and I guarantee people will hold it against you for it

I didn’t realise any employers offered furlough for childcare for school age kids, we (DH and I) were expected to wfh round the children and get on with it, use annual leave and work round each other earlier/later evenings and weekends (it was hideous). Very kind of your employer to give the parents this last year, plus all their annual leave. I would be well cross in your shoes.

I can understand both sides here but what I find odd is that you booked so much time off in the school holidays in one year. I had school aged children a long time and rarely managed that much in one year. Even without being given a priority that would breed some resentment.

I also think as you weren't allowed holiday off at key times last year and the furloughed workers were able to see their children/family on these dates its fair you get priority for one year. Allowing this for two years isn't fair and having people book all the school holidays knowing it means parents will really struggle just feels mean to me. There needs to be some balance.

@adagio

I didn’t realise any employers offered furlough for childcare for school age kids, we (DH and I) were expected to wfh round the children and get on with it, use annual leave and work round each other earlier/later evenings and weekends (it was hideous). Very kind of your employer to give the parents this last year, plus all their annual leave. I would be well cross in your shoes.

Exactly this. Not sure why you're getting such a hard time on this thread OP. Seems like you've already been accommodating of your parent colleagues for a whole year, supporting their need to furlough to provide childcare and picking up their workload. You deserve a break and it's entirely up to you when you take it. As a parent, if I was one of your colleagues who'd been furloughed I'd be hugely grateful of the fact you'd worked throughout and would be falling over myself to accommodate whatever leave you wanted!

I can see what your employer was trying to do and obviously thought they were being considered and generous (although not to the non parents - think it's pretty crap that you basically had to work whilst the ones with kids were furloughed on full pay! - and I'm a parent by the way!) if I was a parent I'd be feeling pretty embarrassed about wanting priority for this years holidays but some do think they and their kids are more important than everyone else!

Anyway - I guess it all comes down to communication - did your boss tell all the furloughed parents that by the way those that continued to work whilst you enjoyed yourselves last year will have priority for annual leave in 2021? That they would need to make use of holiday clubs / childcare etc this year

Or as a sweetener the company could offer to buy back some of your accumulated annual leave at an inflated price so you get a bonus of sorts? Or allow furloughed members to
Take time off in blocks - like a sort of sabbatical?

I think personally the furloughed parents should
Just have to suck it up

**I’d be furious in your shoes OP (another key worker here who’s in desperate need of a break).

While they can do it, they are seriously harming goodwill with employees who went above and beyond, which is an odd employee relations strategy**

^This. I agree with you OP.

So your company furloughed people that didn't need to be furloughed, as a "goodwull" gesture?

So basically took advantage of the government scheme to pay their employees and save a shed load of money, whilst increasing the pressure on those who remained?

I wonder how many other companies did this and how much it cost the government (us, in the long run?)

Im sorry but was that even legal??