Furlough and annual leave

[HunterHearstHelmsley]

During the first two lockdowns, my workplace furloughed for childcare reasons. There was more than enough work, and we are key workers. It was a good will gesture from my employers.

We are just finalising summer annual leave. As a 'carrot', those not furloughed have been given annual leave priority for the next 2 years.

The shit is starting to hit the fan. I have 2.5 weeks book in the summer, October half term and Christmas - New Year booked. Its fairly similar across the board for others with priority. Parents are now insisting that our leave be cancelled so they can take the time. Unions are being involved and management are having conversations.

Am I correct in thinking that our leave cannot be cancelled in order for someone else to take it? I understand leave can be cancelled with double the amount of notice. Is this for only business critical reasons or can it be to give someone else the leave?

Currently I am only away for 1.5 weeks of the time I have booked (it's mainly to spend time with family children). I would consider swapping the time I have off, but I would want either extra pay or leave to do so.

I have to say I’m not sure I understand fully but from what I’ve read this has all been handled entirely inappropriately y your employer.

It is not the employer’s ‘kindness’ or ‘goodwill gesture’ to allow furlough for childcare reasons. Key workers were identified as being crucial to the smooth-running of our country while we (the whole country, not just parents) navigated our way through this awful time. So for your employer to allow furlough even though there was enough (crucial) work to go around if wrong. The government sets the rules for when furlough if permitted and then we all pay back the huge costs in years to come.

Now that’s off my chest... I agree with you op that cancelling your annual leave is also completely wrong. I don’t think you should suffer just because of your employers poor judgement last year. It’s already been through a process of approval, I assume? And you have something in writing to confirm that is so? In that case I would be inclined to speak openly with the manager to say that I intend to take the leave that was approved and that my maternity status must not be used to discriminate against me.

Unless I’m missing something, I think it is as simple as that. Although conversations like that are difficult for many people, including myself. So it is harder to stand up for yourself in a calm way if you struggle with confrontation.

Good luck x

I’m with you OP.

It may come down to whether those who took the furlough opportunity knew it might compromise their priority for annual leave for two years. If they knew this and still took furlough then it’s their choice.

They were incredibly lucky to be furloughed at a challenging time.

I expect your employer wishes they hadn’t bothered as it’s just caused a headache and bad feeling across the workforce.

@LEMtheoriginal I was thinking that. Furlough wasn’t intended for organisations which could continue operating.

Whoever made these decisions in your organisation OP is going to come under fire!

No doubt the company have cocked up here and handled it badly but it is unbelievable that some people think OP shouldn’t be able to
have her choice of holidays, as promised.

Sounds like parents knew this was the deal when they CHOSE furlough, and now the decision is coming home to roost they want the company to fuck over those that carried the load for months and months? Now THAT’s fucking selfish.

Doesn’t matter if the OP has kids, nieces and nephews, a partner, eight dogs, or if she wants to spend every day of leave cackling to herself on the sofa. Parents have no special rights to school holidays off even in normal times. If you want to guarantee school holidays off, you need to find a job that offers that.

I don't understand why people are jumping on the OP for booking some school holidays off? MIL works in a school so FIL uses all of his AL in school holidays as that's the only time they can get away. Should he not have a holiday as he has no young children?

The OP should be allowed to take her leave when she wants if that is what her company policy is. I can understand Christmas and summer if you don't have kids, not really sure why half term but your choice. I hope your company gets found out for abusing the furlough scheme that is tax payer money to fund their business

I'm with you OP. God knows why the business offered this if they thought it through. It would obviously cause an issue. They would have been far better offer off with a bonus or indeed some extra hols another time. I guess they saw this as something with no cost attached to it.

The company were a bit savage if it wasn't made clear this would be the case for those who took furlough (not sure if they did?), but absolutely you can take leave when you want! I used to hate it before having children that I could never get time off at Christmas or during the summer holidays (when the weather is usually the best and family was off work), t was really unfair to be honest and I wish I'd spoken up.

Disgusting abuse of furlough by your company. Taxpayers will be paying for this for years.

@Leonardsgirl

Disgusting abuse of furlough by your company. Taxpayers will be paying for this for years.

True, but it's not OPs fault, and I doubt many of the parents who took advantage of the offer were concerned with the moral issue of it. Correct though that its annoying, especially when many carried on working and juggling everything.

I haven't booked the majority of my leave in the holidays. I have 62 days, 24 are in the holidays. I'm going to struggle to fit them in as it is. I also have to work around our busy periods so some dates aren't possible.

Regarding furlough - you could be furloughed for childcare reasons. Even if you were a keyworker.

This thread seems to have manged to get completely off the subject.

On what basis has the employer abused the furlough scheme - not one shred of evidence exists to substantiate that claim. Being furloughed is not remotely the same thing as making a claim. In fact, from the facts outlined I surmised that the employer may not even have been able to claim - the annual leave amounts seemed on the more generous side, and many (although not all) key workers are public sector - public sector employers were not allowed to claim from the furlough scheme even where workers were furloughed. My own employer permitted managers to furlough staff for childcare reasons during parts of the lockdowns where there was no other alternative. Public sector. No claim involved.

In relation to the moral rights and wrongs, those are all matters of opinion. The point is that the OP asks "Am I correct in thinking that our leave cannot be cancelled in order for someone else to take it?* The answer is no, they are not correct.

But I also note that there has been outrage that the OP should have to change their dates to support leave wanted by parents. On a personal note, I might have some sympathy with both sides of the argument, which makes it difficult. but the OP says
Currently I am only away for 1.5 weeks of the time I have booked (it's mainly to spend time with family children). I would consider swapping the time I have off, but I would want either extra pay or leave to do so.
In other words, the OP really doesn't care all that much about seeing her nieces and nephews at these times, because they are willing to forego that desire if they get extra pay or holiday in addition to their entitlement. That is an exceptionally unfair demand.

Personally, I think the employer was an idiot to offer priority on leave for two years - it was bound to end badly. Be that as it may, if they wish to backtrack now then that is their right. And if they wish to clamp down on how leave is booked going forward to prevent such disputes in the future, then that is also their choice. And anyone who doesn't like it is entitled to find another job, whatever the reason they don't like it, and whether or not they were furloughed or have children.

Ah, I get it. You are going to be the unpaid childcare for your nephews and nieces!
It’s very telling about you that you’d rather your coworkers struggle to find childcare in school holidays which they will have to pay a lot for so that you can spend time with other children whom you aren’t responsible for and don’t have to find childcare costs out of your salary.
My dh worked all through lockdown, half the staff were furloughed. He wouldn’t dream of taking so much holiday time in the school holidays if it meant his coworker couldn’t take time off with her school aged children.

@Leonardsgirl

Disgusting abuse of furlough by your company. Taxpayers will be paying for this for years.

Why is it?

He wouldn’t dream of taking so much holiday time in the school holidays if it meant his coworker couldn’t take time off with her school aged children.

Why though? He doesn't have to martyr himself, it's not unusual for people to want time off in the summer when the weather is usually the best, or around Christmas.

I'm surprised your work hasn't offered to buy back some holiday. If I had as many days to take as you I'd love a few weeks bought back. I'd be carrying it over for ever.

Have they allowed the people who were furloughed to carry over holidays too? I know a couple of people who had to take their holiday while they were furloughed.

It sounds like a rubbish situation for everyone that the business didn't think through at all.

There also seems to be a lot of ill feeling towards those who were furloughed who probably didn't have a huge choice in the matter if they had small DCs to look after.

I'd approach union see if they can discuss with work about selling some holidays, seems like the only workable solution to this.

You should also point out that when the furlough was offered back in 2020 there was no mention made of that being intrinsically linked to not being allowed to take annual leave in school holidays for the next 2 years and if that link had been made explicit it is obvious that many people would have then thought twice about accepting the furlough offer and found a different way to get through the pandemic. It is not fair or reasonable to impose this consequence after the event because no one was able to make an informed decision at the time. Therefore leave priority should be independent of whether or not someone took furlough.

"
Yesterday 23:31DancingQueen85

I'm really shocked by the attitude on this thread.
Children deserve to have some relaxed time with their parents over the holidays."
They've had all the furlough time. Workers deserve some time off over the holidays.
Op yanbu.
I'm another one who is shocked at your employer basically using taxpayers to save costs to themselves and get brownie points with staff.

What a very difficult situation op. We also had quite a few people furloughed for childcare reasons (so not because there was no work) and the rest of us had to carry the load. Many of us also had children at home and it was a complete nightmare for most. I had colleagues starting work at 4am to get work done and then working well into the evening too. We haven’t changed our leave policy at all (it’s first come first served) because it would be a complete minefield for the very reasons you have given. This is leading to resentment between the two camps unfortunately, as those who were furloughed and basically had nearly a year off on full pay in some cases, are showing now flexibility towards their colleagues who covered their asses. Not good and I’m sure it will come back to bite them eventually. It’s a case of give and take, not take and take and take...

OP for what its worth, and as a parent, I think you are entirely justified in fighting your corner. I think the vocal parents have some brass neck to enjoy full pay childcare furlough at the expense of their colleague's additional (unpaid) labour, when most of the workforce (my workplace too, even though we are all technically keyworkers) were telling parents to carry on working around their kids whilst school was off, and then complain when they couldn't bag their preferred holidays when they were back.

@Soontobe60

Ah, I get it. You are going to be the unpaid childcare for your nephews and nieces! It’s very telling about you that you’d rather your coworkers struggle to find childcare in school holidays which they will have to pay a lot for so that you can spend time with other children whom you aren’t responsible for and don’t have to find childcare costs out of your salary. My dh worked all through lockdown, half the staff were furloughed. He wouldn’t dream of taking so much holiday time in the school holidays if it meant his coworker couldn’t take time off with her school aged children.

I'm not going to be unpaid childcare. I want to spend time with the children I've barely seen over the last year. I've missed enough.

@Moondust001

This thread seems to have manged to get completely off the subject.

On what basis has the employer abused the furlough scheme - not one shred of evidence exists to substantiate that claim. Being furloughed is not remotely the same thing as making a claim. In fact, from the facts outlined I surmised that the employer may not even have been able to claim - the annual leave amounts seemed on the more generous side, and many (although not all) key workers are public sector - public sector employers were not allowed to claim from the furlough scheme even where workers were furloughed. My own employer permitted managers to furlough staff for childcare reasons during parts of the lockdowns where there was no other alternative. Public sector. No claim involved.

In relation to the moral rights and wrongs, those are all matters of opinion. The point is that the OP asks "Am I correct in thinking that our leave cannot be cancelled in order for someone else to take it?* The answer is no, they are not correct.

But I also note that there has been outrage that the OP should have to change their dates to support leave wanted by parents. On a personal note, I might have some sympathy with both sides of the argument, which makes it difficult. but the OP says
Currently I am only away for 1.5 weeks of the time I have booked (it's mainly to spend time with family children). I would consider swapping the time I have off, but I would want either extra pay or leave to do so.
In other words, the OP really doesn't care all that much about seeing her nieces and nephews at these times, because they are willing to forego that desire if they get extra pay or holiday in addition to their entitlement. That is an exceptionally unfair demand.

Personally, I think the employer was an idiot to offer priority on leave for two years - it was bound to end badly. Be that as it may, if they wish to backtrack now then that is their right. And if they wish to clamp down on how leave is booked going forward to prevent such disputes in the future, then that is also their choice. And anyone who doesn't like it is entitled to find another job, whatever the reason they don't like it, and whether or not they were furloughed or have children.

It's third sector.

The reason I'd be willing to swap for more pay or leave is because I don't want to have to give it up again. Without those weeks I'll be left with random wet weeks in November. I don't see why I should just have to accept that.

@KihoBebiluPute

You should also point out that when the furlough was offered back in 2020 there was no mention made of that being intrinsically linked to not being allowed to take annual leave in school holidays for the next 2 years and if that link had been made explicit it is obvious that many people would have then thought twice about accepting the furlough offer and found a different way to get through the pandemic. It is not fair or reasonable to impose this consequence after the event because no one was able to make an informed decision at the time. Therefore leave priority should be independent of whether or not someone took furlough.

My understanding is that they were aware. Everyone working knew, I'm fairly certain that it was raised at the time. I can't be 100% though as I wasn't part of those conversations.

My suspicion is that they knew but didn't think it would actually happen.

I'm furious your colleagues took furlough when they didn't need to - schools would have taken key worker kids. Free holiday at expense of tax payer.

YANBU OP your colleagues sound selfish.