How many of you returned to work after your 1st child thinking you could have it all, then realised the truth and...

[artichokes]

...expedited getting pregnant again just so you could stop working?

I ask on 9.30pm on a Friday night as I finish catching-up on the work I could not finish this week because I had to pick DD up on time. Once I have finished with this thread I will go and pack my bag for my Sunday morning business flight that will take me away from my daughter for a week.

I never realised how hard juggeling work and family would be. DH and I have been discussing it all week and instead of leaving a three year gap we are going to try for a baby ASAP so that I can be at home again. If we are lucky enough to conceive I will take a career break after my maternity leave.

I know three others who are rushing their next pregnancies because working is too hard. Are there more out there?

pointydog - but what about parents who never attend any children's school events? Never take them to the doctor/dentist? Don't know the names of their friends? Don't buy their clothes? Because they are never there, always at work. For me, that equates to a family life that is less important than work.

I'm not saying that the parents necessarily don't care that things are that way - I know parents that mind desperately (and I know parents who really don't care and don't see why it is important they actually be physically present at their children's side).

I can't comment. I don't know any parents like that.

IN the grand scheme of things, those sort of parents are very uncommon and there's some particular reason like a long family history of distant boarding school (or drug addiction or something serious)that brings about such a sorry state of affairs.

pointydog - I know lots of parents like that and I don't think it's uncommon (obviously) or due to boarding school or drug addiction. I think it's due to excess material ambition, and there is a lot of it about.

Anna888, you say

"there are only two good reasons for working:

• you really enjoy your job, and/or
• you need the money "

No, those aren't the only reasons. Um, what about financial independence? What about having something to DO that isn't children/family? What about intellectual stimulation? Adult company? etc etc?

I have to say I agree with Xenia on a lot of this thread.

And also re "but what about parents who never attend any children's school events? Never take them to the doctor/dentist? Don't know the names of their friends? Don't buy their clothes? Because they are never there, always at work. For me, that equates to a family life that is less important than work. "

OK, my points in caps only to make it easier to read, not shouting!

Never attend any children's school events? NOT VITAL TO ATTEND ALL OF THEM IMO, DETEST SCHOOL FAYRES PERSONALLY

Never take them to the doctor/dentist? SOMETIMES ME, SOMETIMES DH, BUT I DON'T THINK IT HAS TO BE EITHER OF US

Don't know the names of their friends? NOTHING TO DO WITH WORKING/EVERYTHING TO DO WITH TAKING AN INTEREST IN THEIR LIVES

Don't buy their clothes? WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO? EX DH BUYS SMOE, SOME ONLINE, I DON'T FIND IT PLEASURABLE, IT'S A CHORE

Because they are never there, always at work. For me, that equates to a family life that is less important than work. NO, YOU ARE EQUATING WHAT YOU CONSIDER TO BE FAMILY LIFE WITH ER, FAMILY LIFE. MANY PEOPLE CONSIDER MUCH OF THIS STUFF TO BE CHORES.

Haven't read full thread but to OP yes i did this. Realised when dd was 1 that I actually quite liked spending time with her, so had DS so I could give up work. Of course, I then felt so unfullfilled being SAHm taht I gt terribly depressed, but that's another story

To artichokes, I did the converse. Deliberately spaced around 3 years between dd and ds so that I could continue working pt between the two and after ds. Did not want or need the stress of closely spaced pregnancies.

The penalty to your career is less this way, I believe. The difference between parking your career, to taking a backward hit.

Working is not too hard. It is great. I am very privileged to be able to work pt.

You are right - juggling work and family IS very hard work. The key is organisation. SAHM sounded attractive before I went back to work from my first maternity leave - but it was only initially daunting. Once I had worked out the flexbile working and the childcare, I am eternally grateful I do not have to spend 24/7 with my children.

Much as I love them and do far too much for them, my working gives my day variety and balance, I dare say for my dcs as well.

I worked in the City and there was a sizeable minority of people like this. It was sad to see.

kerala, I might add that it does not go unnoticed and does cause resentment - having 2 closely spaced maternity leaves and then quitting.

Lead to a joke (which I was not supposed to hear) about whether it was more expensive to hire women or marry them

May be it's just French parents who are like that then, Anna. i was mightily relieved that for 16 yeras my husband did every dentist appointment for all 5 children and I never went once. I didn't see it as something missed. I think I went to every sports day, parents' evening etc and he hated school things as he's a teacher so didn't go. Surely you pick the bits you like if you are the luxury of income and interesting work and money something housewives usually don't have unless they marry money.

You asked what I do with my children it depends on the child and the day. I was at a school thing at 4 today. I think it's more the constant interaction that is family life rather than the events. It's not a stage show of performance events but a daily love and commmunication thing - so 5 minutes ago it was helping my son (19) cope with/discuss the French change in attitude to war - can we get them to stop Anna - it's appalling but that's a separate issue and then at 6.30 it was getting the twins to do homework and music practice without open warfare between them breaking out and a daughter's health issue was this morning and tonight the other one's course work stuff. We also were last month sailing in the Caribbean but it's the day to day family things that matter and I am sure working parents are as involved with families and get as much out of them as anyone.

Sometimes we may not want to know every detail of the child's bowels or hear chapter and verse what happened at school and I do find some of the non working mothers very dull in their over interest in school as if they have made this life, having to make a life out of something which isn't a life, a sort of trivialisation of themselves which demeans them, they could do better.

And some work is more important than family life although that depends on the work. I am sure women in the UK and even France do really important life saving or businesssaving or whatever work that the planet would be much the worse for if we all adopted hte standard housewife position of the women of Saudi and under the Taliban.

But don't you go out and do things together? You're talking about individual chores (homework etc)? Don't you go out and about, visit other towns, explore a village, a museum, a cathedral, go to a restaurant and eat something you've never eaten before, go to a concert in a church, go for a cliff walk, plan and give a party...?

WickedWaterWitch - I would class all your reasons for working in either enjoyment or needing the money:

financial indpendence = needing the money
having something to do that isn't children/family = enjoyment
intellectual stimulation = enjoyment
adult company = enjoyment

Xenia - I'm not referring particularly to French parents, by the way. I know people all over the world

Xenia - I want to bottle some Essence of Xenia - and every time I feel like not getting up in the mornings - that'd be most mornings - I could give myself a squirt. Just to remind myself that stay-at-home-mums have attitudes to womanhood like the Taliban.

In 23 years (from tomorrow) of being a mother we've done loads together. I don't see why you think we don't. I can't think of anything you've mentioned we don't do.

Anna, what an odd question to ask Xenia: "But don't you go out and do things together? You're talking about individual chores (homework etc)? Don't you go out and about, visit other towns, explore a village, a museum, a cathedral, go to a restaurant and eat something you've never eaten before, go to a concert in a church, go for a cliff walk, plan and give a party...?"

Does your partner, who presumably works, do any of those things with his child?

I hope you don't think working parents don't do any of the things you mentioned - because that would be a mighty skewed view of working parents. The only difference is working parents have to fit those activities in around weekends, bank holidays and annual leave. No big deal.

To quote pointydog: "Family life isn't less important. It's just arranged differently." I agree.

Blueshoes/kerala - if my city employer had not made it perfectly clear that my promotion to VP had been delayed because of my first maternity leave, or had not pushed me into sideline activities once it became clear that I was no longer prepared to work 12 hours days after going back, or givenme a significantly reduced bonus when I did go back, then I might not have done something so "sad".

I do know that there has to be a vanguard of women who fight for equal rights for parents at work, but my employers just made it too bloddy difficult for me to join that group. The firm had excellent policies, but at ground level I got sick and tired of the dissaproval every time I said I couldn't do a 6pm meeting, or insisted on leaving at 7 even during really busy times so I could get home and breastfeed my daughter before bed. So please don't resent me - I would have loved to continue to work if my firm had even once indicated that they still valued me even though I was no longer prepared to give 120% of my life to my company.

I don't feel able to give up work and risk not having a pension etc etc in the future. This is a serious sacrifice and people who don't consider this are putting their heads in the sand IMO. My husband's parents and possibly mine may well be dependent upon my husband and me for some financial support in a couple of years' time for various reasons, and it absolutely terrifies me. But what could we do? Say no, live on £7K per year?! This is what we have learned will be my hsuband's mum's pension when his father passes away.

I would do anything to avoid being in this situation myself. I have been made redundant once and am really scared about another downturn - and being much closer to 40 this time when it's not so easy to re-invent oneself. Give up work if you like and can, but please please keep an eye on your long term finances to make sure you're secure.

Sorry for the rant but I'm in a bit of a panic mode at the moment.

Anna888 I'm horrified by the sweeping judgements you make, and your view that family life is somehow 'less important' to people who work outside the home. What an insult to millions of parents all over the world who work!
I also think your statement that the only reasons people work is for financial need or enjoyment says a lot about you. I am a teacher, and I teach for all kinds of reasons - financial independence, to utilise my intellectual skills, to make a difference to young people and help them discover who they are and what they want out of life, to be a role model for my own children.... yes, all these things may come under the umbrella of enjoyment, but when you actually analyse them I think you'll see that your phrase doesn't do justice to why people work. And how sad that the underlying assumption seems to be that most people don't enjoy work and that its some sort of burden we have to carry around with us!!!!
As for the strange questions about 'do you ever go for a walk along the cliffs, plan a party etc'..... yes, parents who work do all these things and more!!!! There are parents who work who have interesting fulfilling lives with their children; equally, there are parents who don't work who worry about cleaning behind the cupboards or stagnate in front of daytime TV! Please stop making these sweeping generalisations!

absolutely ebeneezer

Xenia - I think you might not because when you talk about family life you always reduce it to cleaning and domestic chores . So that obviously suggests that's all that happens in your household

I think it is really sad when people feel that they cannot have it all, and even sadder when others - who know nothing about your family life - assume that you are lying when you say that you can have it all and that they assume it has to come at the cost of sacrificing your children's happiness.

Yes, there have been times when I've been a bit embarassed at missing some work events (weekend off-sites overseas are the usual casualties, because that is sacred family time), and yes, of course there are times when I'd give anything to roll over in bed and not face the commute in to a day of stressy meetings or an early-morning flight to Frankfurt (but I had those days too before I had a family), and yes, there are times when my DC's and I have had a really really great family day and the sun is shining the next morning and DS is sleeping and I just want to stay at home and go down the beach again with them, but I can't.

It is really difficult to get the balance right and you have to have the most organised mind on the planet to keep up the confidence to forge ahead, but you can forge ahead. Work is still the challenge it always was, children or not (in fact I find it all slightly less stressful now that it is not the centre of my universe), and career progress is still possible if you still work hard and show that you are as committed as ever (I have earned more as a mother than I ever did before). You can always find a tiny piece of space for yourself if you need to as well, so long as it is planned carefully. My DH has his Rugby on a Saturday afternoon and I have my studies on Sunday morning. Then we plan the time with our children accordingly. If you stay organised, stay flexible, and pick yourself a partner who appreciates that parenting is a joint effort requiring joint commitment and joint sacrifice, then it can be done and when you get offered that key promotion and know that other women coming up behind you will also get the same opportunities because you have shown the bosses what mothers can do, it is one of the most fantastic feelings in the world.

And Anna - in response to your beliefs about the limitations of the working mother: on Sunday my DH will accompany DS to Touch Rugby, Monday I will take him to his school swimming group, Wednesday I am going on a school trip with him to watch a ploughing match and Friday DH will go to the school harvest festival service. DH or I have done every Doctors trip. His best friends are called Harry, Adam, Callum, George, Kyle, William and Jasper, and the only time he wears clothes I haven't personally bought him is when he is given them as presents by his grandparents. His current nanny has known him since he was 3 months old when she looked after him in the local nursery and he adores her. He spends time now and then with his nanny at a home for adults with learning difficulties owned by relatives of the nanny where he plays with the adults, and he spends other days on the beach, in the woods, playing with friends in the park or running round the garden with his dog. His grandparents take him to and from school two days a week and that is always followed by a trip to a local wild animal sanctuary. His class at pre-prep has 8 children in it and two devoted teachers who have been at the school for more than a dozen years. They take the children out to the orchards and to play in the school 'forest' every day, rain or shine. When he is 7 his school day will include two hours of sport every single day, right up until he is 18 years old. That it what having it all really means and it is a lifestyle I have worked for and am immensely proud to have achieved for my son (I do not come from a moneyed family - every penny of this lifestyle has been earned by me and my DH). My DS comes home exhausted and happy and wakes up happy. I cannot for the life believe how my stopping work and thus removing from him many of these activities and opportunities could possibly benefit him in any way.

Haven't time to read whole post as am at my busy office job. BUT want to throw in that after 9 years being sahm, 3 kids now all in primary school, I took a full time job in the City. Paid less than younger colleagues, less than before becoming a parent. 6 months on I am about to leave because my commute's too long (3 hrs/day) and life's too short.

I worry about my pension, about separating from dh and being (shock horror) single and penniless. But not enough to be feel like a knackered piece of string Monday-Friday and spend weekends in a haze of tidying up and laundry because our childcare/cleaning arrangements aren't up to scratch. Life's no fun when it's out of kilter.

My employers refused to give me a 3 day week, it's their loss. Sorry if this repeats others' experience but until the companies can get their head round family lives they'll haemorrage capable hard working women.

Nice post Squiffy.

"but until the companies can get their head round family lives they'll haemorrage capable hard working women"

Indeed. If mine hadn't got their heads round my family life I would have walked. But they value me enough to make that effort.