Is maternity leave sexist ?

[mozhe]

I think so.....surely it should be parental leave that is available to both parents,( or maybe even members of the wider family network, like grandparents ? ), and there should be financial incentives to encourage both parents to take it. What do other people think ? Instead of trying to make maternity leave longer should we not focus on supporting parents back into work sooner and providing better/cheaper/more appropriate childcare...

Well quite fanny.

However, my dull desk job is enabling me to Mumsnet right at this minute.....

Now thats not such a bad thing, is it?

think when I go back to work next year I'm going to find a place that's got a wi-fi connection I can get onto - and buy myself a laptop - then I'll be MN'ing at 3am .

I know a lot of people enjoy desk jobs - I'm just not one of them - similarly lots of people would hate the sort of work I do - I guess that's what makes the world go round

Well exactly.

I think the most important thing to consider when looking for a job is whether you will enjoy it. Then, whether you will be any good at it. Then, whether it earns a good wage.

I have 3 children at university so it's a very pressing issue that they consider all those factors, not something a toddler might need to think about in 18 years' time. My father always said pick work you would enjoy first of all. I remember loads of car journeys to school when my sister would be discussing various career options. It's difficult for teenagers or students to decide.

So yes, will you enjoy it; will you be any good at it (not much point going into acting if you're hopeless or trying to be a famous musician if you're not musical and some children aren't aware of what they're bad at; and the money matters too. You don't want a child saying later why didn't you tell me that John could earn £100k as a GP and my picking XYZ instead meant I'd always be really badly paid compared to him. I just didn't know at that age that that might matter because I was 20 and didn't think forward to whether I could afford to do XYZ.

but what is the big deal with having a MASSIVE income??? DH and I don't have a "massive" combined income (although I appreciate it's a lot more than a large number of people in this country) - but in 3 1/2yrs time - once we've finished paying off our debts - we'll be living VERY comfortably.

What does is matter if Johnny is earning £100k and his friend is 'only' earning £25k??? Doesn't mean that Johnny is any happier, or even (dare I say it) "better off" than his friend because he has a bigger salary...

I think stricking a balance and not forcing anyone to stay at home or go back to work if they choose not to would be ideal

fa ,no, you're right. In fact happiness is in part supposed to come from being a bit better off than those you choose to live near and consort with given how silly people are - it's the relative thing that has the impact. Of course things like if you get depression etc have an even bigger impact. My divorce wasn't much fun, nor was my mother's death, father's illness, money makes no major difference to any of those kinds of things in terms of personal feelings.

But interestingly most children in each generation want generally to have what their parents had. Largely we had had that. Each generation since the WWII has had it and possibly in the UK and US we might just have come up to a time where that might not be so, people worse off than their parents on the whole and not able to emulate the life their parents had whether that was owning a house or a car or whatever.

"The only way that women are going to break through glass ceilings...is to be more committed and present in the workplace."

Why don't men worry about not breaking through the maternity glass ceiling?

I know, each woman asking for flexible working compounds the stereotype. It's hugely frustrating for all those firms who bend over backwards to accommodate women, have good policies and still they leave and won't come back.

But I'm still hopeful. I think more and more men are involved with their children, at least amongst new fathers I know, who want to get home to let the nanny go, collect from nursery or school etc. There have been huge changes for the better and the harmonisation of paternity and maternity leave to some extent will help too and younger men vocierously saying - hang on there love - why is it fair I graft for 30 years and you stay home when I want to do that - let's share that. More female millionaires under 40 than men now probably because many have had to break away from employment which has never been much of a route to wealth into self employment so in a sense their inability to rise through the usual channels has benefited them - glass ceiling as trampoline up and away from the shackles of serving an employer may be.

But it isn;t a stereotype, which infers some distortion of the truth. It's just a fact that more women than men want to care for their infants.

xenia - you've obviously very bitter about maternity pay. you do realise that it's the government who pays for this and not the employer.

i want to feed my family while on maternity leave - is that wrong? i want to have the freedom to decide to breastfeed my children - impossible to get BF established with in 6 weeks (if baby on time etc). i want my children to be able to look after their children with out finanical penalty, when we are producing future tax payers.

maternity pay is not sexist, it is a contribution to a families income.

and sole income in my case for 6 months, with bills £900 a month and £400 needed for food/clothes/transport, £420 a month doesn't even come close.

Agree with Monkeytrs re striking a balance.

Higher salaries usually come with higher mental pressure of some kind.

Its all about striking a balance between pay and pressure.

Some days I think fondly about opting out and retraining to do my fantasy job, but it would put loads of pressure on my dh as I'd be earning one third of what I do now.

casbie, not strictly true, I think only statutory maternity pay is reimbursed by the government and some employers pay more than the statutory minimum.

I think larger employers are also unable to reclaim even statutory maternity pay.

The OP asked if maternity leave was sexist, not maternity pay.

I don't think that maternity pay needs to be reduced to make things equal. Paternity pay could be increase to match what is now on offer for maternity pay.

I actually find myself agreeing with Xenia a lot of the time lately.

I think that girls should have more conversations about the kind of lifestyle they want, the sort of things they find interesting, the kind of family life they would like.

Too often, you go to a careers advisor at school, they go "Nurse? Teacher? Secretary? No? Well, look through this Big Book Of Jobs - there's some stuff about being a florist in there that might interest you. Next!"

And that's not helpful.

But I think that's because it's assumed that women will stop working when they have babies, so what's the point of them having any kind of career before or after they do that?

And that's a shame, I think.

?It's hugely frustrating for all those firms who bend over backwards to accommodate women?

So what you are effectively saying is that with the increase in paternity leave those firms would be less frustrated bending over backwards to accommodate men and women? Or is the ideal for either the mother or the father taking time off?

Why is it acceptable to be frustrated because women have babies?

neither the mother or the father taking time off?

It's one thing to agree with having more opportunity of choice Clara, that's not an idea of Xenia's, that's a well established liberal ideal; it's another thing to agree with her that women should be pushed to go back to work wether they want to or not, becasue the market is more important than happy families.

The idea is that if mothers and father took the time off then the stereotypes that hold women (and not men) back would cease or at leass reduce. Today if a 22 year old women with no kids and a 22 year old mand with no kids apply for the same job and are equally qualified for the position, the hiring manager will likely think "oh but she going to settle down, take maternity leave, and then not come back so I think I'll hire the man who is only going to take a 2 week vacatrion". But, if men were paid 90% to stay home for 6 weeks then they probably would. And only when that happens, will said manager start viewing the woman applican on an even parr with the man applicant.

Yes, we're blackened by the women before us who give up so employers konw that a woman is not likely to stay and is a bad choice and of many many women are employers too and know that as a fact. So they either prefer men or they pick women who might come back or women who are sterile or whatever.

Actually in some areas of work where there are too many at the bottom and not enough to promote there's an economic argument in recruiting more 22 year old girls because that removes your promotion log jam later and you've had the cheaper labour in their 20s. I hope my daughter didn't get her recent job offer on that basis.

I don't actually have a problem with women having 6 weeks at 90% pay. Men don't bleed post natally and aren't establishing feeding in that period. So I acecpt some differences are justified and the new additional paterntiy leave will give 6 months to women and 6 months to men. I would rather it said 6 months women and you don't get 12 months as women but your man gets 6 months too - i.e. not transferrable but it's a good start. I expect most families won't be changing to woman home 6 months man home next 6 months then both back to work but it's nice for men to have this new option (I think from 2009).

Perhaps this thread has reached its natural conclusion, but can I just make the point that in an office job one might "only" be sitting at desk (which is very painful with SPD as VVVQV said). But even office jobs can involve a considerable amount of mental stress and pressure (and not only highly paid ones, believe me) and I for one just wasn't up to it for much of my pregnancy. I had depression and suffered badly from stress which was affecting my physical health. I was signed off by my doctor for several weeks for the sake of me and the baby. Pregnancy hormones can do very strange things to a woman's body and there is no way I could have worked up to my due date (and I would have been no good at all to my employer if I had tried to).

And I still maintain that most women who succeed in the male world of the workplace by breaking through the glass ceiling or whatever, tend to have a very different outlook and priorities from the majority of women. There is no true equality and I doubt there ever will be.

Clearly you SHOULD have been signed off sick...as you were, but many pregnant women are fine and even those with some ante natal depressive symptoms could be better off at work...depending obviously on what it was.Of course you may say that those that want to,( like me...),can work, but 'message' of the whole set up seems to be,' if you're 38 weeks pregnant you should be lolling around at home '....Agree that things are on the move,( even though not 'til 2009...),and any progress is progress..and maybe our daughters in years to come will think it odd if their partners don't take an equal amount of parental leave after birth.Imo as important as thinking carefully about what career path to follow our DDs need to also pay close attention to choosing a partner....one who is committed to equality in the home as well as in wider society...

Eleusis, that prejudice doesn't exist for 22 year old women without children. Studies tell us that the prejudice only starts when women get pregnent.

Women are not "blackened by the women before" - what a term.

I find your personal prejudice and effort to create a justifiable myth around it quite sickening though Xenia.

MT, that prejudice most certainly does exist. My DH has recently hired a couple of staff and this was certainly on his mind. He thinks I am the only woman around who actually wants to work. I, of course, disagree. Perhaps I should introduce him to Xenia and Mohze?