... or not it would seem. DH says no but I NEED to do something before I go mad (long, sorry)

[Pennies]

In the days BC (before children) I used to work in HR. I loved it and had changed career to get my qualifications to do it (spent two years doing evening study - nightmare). But then I got pregnant and had DD1, stayed off for a year during which time I got pregnant again with DD2. I went back to work full time for 3 months inbetween kids so I could qualify for maternity pay . DD1 went to nursery five days a week during this time. When DD2 came along DD1 dropped from full time down to 3 days a week at nursery.

Then we moved and DD1 now only does 2 mornings a week at our local nursery and DD2 stays at home with me.

DD1 is 2.6yrs and DD2 is 16months.

In the past DH and I agreed in principle that we feel it is best for our children to have a parent at home until full time education starts. DH can't do it (breadwinner) so it is me.

OK. So here I am doing the whole SAHM thing, in a new place with hardly any mates. I'm more than at little bit bored and totally miss adult company. I feel my conversation focuses solely on my children and I feel like two dimensional being. So whilst I still maintain that ideally kids benefit from having a parent at home until school it seems that in practice that is not working for me.

Anyway, I thought that I would return to work to get some intellectual stimulation, some money of my own, some adult company and also I think that my clingy DD2 would benefit from some time in nursery.

There are some jobs going locally in local government that I could do, are at my level of seniority and pay quite well so that we could cover childcare and not make a loss. Local governemtn work is great because the options for flexible work are huge which would mean I could do part time work pretty easily. I am not considering full time work at all.

DH says no. He says that as a parent it is his duty to put the kids welfare first (as if I don't WTF???) and that with that in mind and his traditional views then he doesn't want me to do it. I will have to "find something else to do".

So, here I find myself, a little wifelet and mother at home, bored to dry tears, lonely, financially dependent, craving some brain food.

So does anyone have any ideas for what I could do???? I have no major hobbies - my work was my passion - although I go to the gym and love reading.

(BTW - this is just about how I feel - I don't want to open a debate about the whole SAHM / working mum thing.)

Hi Pennies

Can't really add an enormous amount to this, but just wanted to say I think I'm going to be in the same situation as you, so you have my sympathies! My first is due early October and I'd always thought I'd take a break for a few years, which DH has always been very supportive of. But I've just finished retraining into a job that has been a long old haul and basically thought the getting pregnant thing would take much longer than it did, so will be going off on ML only one month into my permanent job (although with the same employer). Not that I'm complaining about that, but having spent so long slogging to get the job, I think I'd really like to come back (although appreciate my perspective might change). But this is obviously a big change of position from me. Going to be tricky though because it's going to be me who'll have to make it work and my hours can be very unpredictable.

Otherwise, the situation's very similar - my DH also works in the City and I think it's quite understandable that he'd prefer our kids to be looked after by me than someone he doesn't know - I'd be delighted if he'd do it, but the maths just wouldn't make any sense, and his job isn't the sort of thing you could do part time. So I completely know where you're coming from.

Anyway, a bridge I will probably have to cross next year, but I do sympathise - I don't actually think your position's that unusual. Hope you manage to work things out!

Sorry Pennies, I haven't read the whole thread but I've been in the same position as you in a way.

Have you considered either OU or another type of study at a local college that you could do while your DCs are at nursery part-time? I did OU for a year and it was a great way of getting back into the 'adult world' part-time.

It'd get your brain back in gear and add to your CV. Would your DH be more responsive to this than to going back to work?

I think male ego and control are pretty much the same thing really - if a man's ego is threatened by his partner making her own decisions, then he's got a control issue. And tbh any man who can't bear his partner having a mind of her own is being pretty pathetic. How insecure must men like this be?

I don't think it's an insecurity thing - my DH grew up in an environment where, once a mans wife has children, he should be supporting them fully financially so they could stay at home and look after the children - not to belittle them (the women).

Infact the exact opposite in his culture once a woman becomes a mother her position in the family shoots right to the top (for example when we first got married and were still living near his family when we visited I was expected help in the kitchen, help clean, tidy etc etc when we stayed with them - or even visited for a day). We left before I had DS1, but when we last went back it was very much frowned upon if I got up to help - even if it was just to make the tea on 'flying visits' .

He felt by me working that he wouldn't be fulfilling his 'role' supporting us financially and felt it was 'wrong' that I should have to work.

Once we'd talked about it properly he was absolutely fine with it and my 'status' in his family has risen because I manage to work and look after my family.

I really don't think pennies dh "can't bear his partner having a mind of her own" - he just seems worried as to how her exercising her own mind is going to effect what he sees as an already perfect family setup. Selfish maybe, but not pathetic.

I really don't think this is a control thing - he's absolutely not that kind of character. I believe that his opinion is bourne out of his own life experiences growing up, no more, no less.

With regard to doing some study I'm not really sure that really grabs my imagination. Two years of study to get my HR diploma knocked that out of me and at the end of it I made a personal vow to myself that I would never take another exam!

I'm glad to hear there are others out there. I know it's not a new problem by any stretch of the imagination - I'm currently reading Can Any Mother Help Me. I suppose that was the catalyst for me starting this thread because I identify with the woman who wrote to the magazine which sparked off the whole 1930's "mumsnet"! See Book Club topics if you haven't a scooby what I'm banging on about now..

I'm not going to mention your DH pennies as you have asked me not to dwell on that point.

I do think it is an incredibly sad position to be in, and Prufrock you too. Such intelligent and able women not able to reach their full potential in their work lives makes me weep

I actually feel incredibly sorry for the men involved too. Their fear of engaging fully in family life that seems to me to be at the root cause of their insecurity deprives them of a balanced life too.

I hope you manage to work something out. Perhaps some non-executive director roles would be a possibility. I think there are a number of no for profit organisations where these are almost voluntary (I know there are some NHS trusts advertising heavily for these roles at around £5000 per annum for 20 or so days a year).

I can understand your dh's point of view up to a point; my mum was a SAHM and that is what I grew up with. A friend at work really wants to have a baby but feels she can't as they can't afford for her to give up work in order to do so, and that's the family model she's used to, too - both her mum and SIL have always been SAHMs. She's only young, though, so has the luxury of time to wait until her dh is earning enough for her to give up work if that's what they want to do.

For myself ideally both dh and I would work p-t and share the childcare between us but fate intervened and dh is chronically ill, so I have had to adjust my expectations accordingly and to be honest, it's been bloody difficult.

The NHS non-executive could be good except I have a feeling those meetings are in the evening, which might be difficult for you, assuming dh gets home late?

The financial dependency thing could be solved to some extent by dh putting a certain amount of money into a bank account for you each month, solely for your use (i.e. not for clothes, food, etc) - my step-dad has always done this for my mum, it is a no-questions-asked 'wage' of her own, and why shouldn't it be?

I think the trial basis idea is the way to go. Agree some time limits and criteria, I would have thought that HR was a good candidate for p-t working?

Thank you for respecting my wishes tdb, it is appreciated. In respone to your points yes it is frustrating to be in this position and I've been most frank with him about that.

However, I feel that you're projecting issues that simply aren't relevant to this situation, in particular assumptions about male insecurity. Just because someone is brought up in a certain way does not mean instrinsic domestic insecurity nor a fear of engaging fully in family life. Quite the opposite in some cases. In this instance I feel that DH thinks that the ability to be able to stay at home with one's family is such a great one that he is almost unable to see why going to work would be attractive. The fact that he does not is for two reasons:

1. The industry he works in doesn't afford that (for men and women)

2. He has a strong work ethic (again borne from his upbringing - his dad turns 65 this year and is refusing to retire). Trouble is he married someone who also has a strong work ethic and therein lies the problem.

As lucyellensmum said, "he's not bad, he's wrong". She's absolutely right IMO and IME.

What does a non exec director do then?

There's an organisation which specialises in promoting women for these roles, my friend knows about it as it's something she's considering now cervical cancer means she needs to give up full-time work. Will look into it and let you know!

Pennies - I am not suggesting that he stay at home while you go out to work, but rather that he manages his working hours in a way which is conducive to your having a career too.

I work at a very senior level in a City firm where the same working hour culture is the norm. I get by DH works for a prestigeous City institution too - again at a very senior level.

There are countless dual career couples amongst my friends and collegues - all managing to hold down serious city jobs and have a balanced home life too.

It is possible to do, if there is the will to do so.

tdb, thank you for the compliments, but please don't cry for me. I had achieved quite a lot in my career before giving it up, and I always knew that I would not be able to continue after having children. It isn't just that my company demanded 120% commitment if I had wanted to continue to get ahead, but that I demand that of myself as well - when i did return after having dd I found myslef very unhappy as I felt I wasn't doing either of my "jobs" well. Being a good mother has been far more fulfilling than being a bad mother and a bad worker would have been, and now that i have got over a period of adjustment to the huge changes in my life and realised I can actually be proud of myself and validate myself with things outside of paid employment I am very happy (well, ok, I'm not entirely happy yet, but I can definately envisage a time in the not too distant future when I will be)

"Their fear of engaging fully in family life that seems to me to be at the root cause of their insecurity deprives them of a balanced life too."

• are you for real - my DH works bl**dy hard at work - but when he's at home he's absolutely 'hands on' with the DS's - infact more often than not he'll take them off on his own to do 'stuff' (ok sometimes 'man' stuff like going to B&Q lol) leaving me to put my feet up or do whatever I want.

And when I was working and it was my weekend off he had them all weekend basically on his own.

Last night he wasn't having a great day at work and so decided to finish early (thankfully he'd left a bit earlier than usual in the moring so didn't lose any hours) and rushed back to put DS1 to bed......and called me to make sure I kept him up until he got in incase he got caught in traffic.

Prufrock - if you are happy doing what you are doing that is an entirely different scenario.

I have always thought that the ability to choose what to do with one's life is an enormous luxury and one which many people do not have. If you are happy with your choices then that is fabulous - mission accomplished as they say

Sorry haven't read whole thread but would like to offer support to Pennies. Although a SAHM myself and enjoying it I can quite understand why you want to go back to work in your circs. Whatever you agreed BC, life changes immeasurably afterwards. You've tried being a SAHM and feel ready for a change. You're not even proposing to go back full time! I think dh is being unreasonable in wanting so much say in how you run your life, but understand why you don't want to cause a rift in your relationship.

Employing a nanny at your home might be less disruptive to your dc than nursery, how would dh feel about that?

Re what to do if you don't take a paid job: with your HR experience have you thought of becoming a school governor? Our governing body are about to choose a new head teacher, so governors with HR experience are v useful!Many schools are short of governors and you don't have to be a parent at the school.

Sorry I missed your post fa.

I was talking mainly about some of the male workers that I come across in City life who seem never to see their children from Sunday evening through to Friday evening. I have often thought that they are escaping from something and the office (or possibly their club or other evening social venue) is their bolthole away from family life.

Perhaps that is an extreme portrayal, but it's not that far off the truth

Don't know what to say, pennies, because i don't want to dh bash but I really agree with some of the earlier posts very strongly. I think blu especially was spot on. If you are unhappy not working and have identified that as the root of your unhappiness and told your husband that and he is immoveable then your husband is very very wrong here, imo, even if you don't like hearing that (sorry). I think it's pretty unhealthy to let him call the shots on your happiness.

Pru- I'm so glad things are gradually getting better for you.

Scummymummy - bored, not unhappy.

I told Dh about this thread last night - he was at some of the advice and it was interesting in that his rebuff to tdb's view re. men shirking family resonsibilites was exactly as I said it would be.

He was also interested in the CAB role which I found on the volunteer website. It only required 8-10 hours a week so it's not going to make a huge impact on the kids but is enough time for me to get out of the house and to get my brain fix. It's doing something akin to what I was doing BC and I think it would stand me in good stead CV-wise for when I do go back to work once the kids are in school. So that's what I'm going to start looking into. Let's hope it ticks all the boxes.

BTW we have started to discuss re-jigging our accounts so that I don't have to ask for cash.

A happy ending? Fingers crossed.

Is there an aspect of your job that you could do as a self employed person?

Being self employed means I still feel like a SAHM most of the time, but I earn money, get out of the house whilst ds is at kindy or in bed, and use my brain in a different way.

I get a buzz out of doing my own tax return and not having to ask for time off.

In other words I don't swap the shit bits of home, for different shit at work.

Hope it works out for you Pennies but I'm still gobsmacked at the balance of power in your relationship and those of others in the same situation. That in this day and age there are men - nice men, according to their wives - who believe they can decide whether they 'let' them go out to work.

If your husbands truly accept that women are equal to men, full human beings with the same rights as intelligent adults, why would they behave like this? Why would they assume they have not only a casting vote but a veto on their wives going out to work?

Dh and I are both grown ups. We don't 'let' each other do anything. We discuss things that affect us as a family, we check that there aren't any diary clashes or sort out any competing committments, but neither of us has a veto or orders the other one around.

Pennies, have had time to go back and read the thread now and understand a bit more the issues involved. I accept your DH's point of view but if I were you I would be extremely worried about the way the financial clout in your relationship is being distributed. It seems to me that he is securing his own financial future at the detriment of yours - not intentionally I am sure, but his attitude is preventing you from progressing up the career ladder and building up a pension. It is OF COURSE fine for you to step off the career ladder if that is your choice, but this sounds like it's his choice not yours.

TBH if I were you I would not be worried about today or tomorrow but what you will do in 10 or 20 years time. At what point do you think your DH will support your going back to work? Because it can be incredibly hard to get back on the career ladder after an extended break, and whatever they may say, many employers do NOT value charity work in quite the same way as paid employment. More worryingly your pension pot is trickling away, and every pound that is going into your DH's pension and not yours weights the financial scales on his side.

I am sorry if this sounds doom-mongerish but two good family friends were left in very difficult circumstances after being SAHM mothers. One left her husband in her fifties, he is now retired and living very comfortably on his pension while she is living very precariously on the tiny pension she managed to build up after the kids were at university. The other friend's husband sadly died in his 40s and the pension he had built up was not what she had anticipated, had he lived to retire.

At the very least, if your DH is expecting you to put your career aside for the family he should be prepared to contribute to a separate pension scheme for you.

I would not get into a relationship where my work wasn't respected or anyone would require me to stay home with children but as you are in one I suppose you need to decide how the power lies in your relationship, if he decides things, if you're happy with that, if you can live with his decision. You may be able to but plenty of men die or skip off abroad with younger women leaving you with no mnoey and teenagers who are cross their mother or so it seems cannot keep them as she lost her career. It's not fair on your children.

If he wants a parent at home he knows what he can do - hand him the apron and the list of home jobs tomorrow and go out and find a job.

Anyway why is he the breadwinner not you? May be you could earn more than him and it would make sense for him to be at home?

How about signing up with a employment agency? Tell them exactly what you are looking for and they will find you something to suit you. Usually they give you a call a day/a week in advance or sometimes even in the morning to ask if you can work this or that day. Then if the children are sick you just say no, but if everybody is well and healthy you can go get your brain fix.

Hi Pennies

Glad you look to have an end in sight - and just to reiterate what I said before, I can see that your DH's stance is nothing to do with control but all about your family as a whole, rather than all of you as individuals. Can quite understand that he sees that you can be in a position not to be working, or to be obliged to do something (and it's true that there's just not the same obligation) and that he would prefer that. And I think it's sometimes hard for people to understand that we'd be happy to do all the running round that comes with being a working mum when they're not in our position - but as it's not working for you, it's good that you seem to have found other options.

One thing you might want to consider from the financial independence point of view (which i agree must be odd because I think most of us know are brought up to be financially independent) - a friend of mine has been a SAHM for the past 5 years (about to go back to work now). She's had all bank accounts in her name for all of that time - it makes sense for tax reasons and there's no question about not. I'm planning to return to work but if I don't, that's the route we're going down - and to address another point, I can keep my pension plan if I leave, so will be continuing to pay into that.

Good luck again!