Would you leave a £250,000pa job to be a SAHM?

[misosoup]

Ok, I've changed my name for this, not quite sure why....

I really enjoy my job and it is pretty well paid but since I returned to work after having DD2 I have been thinking a lot about this.

I can afford not to work, dh's income is nothing like mine but still above average although it will clearly be a huge drop in our standard of living.

And I miss the kids do much during the day... I spend 2 hours per day with them plus weekends. There is no way I can cut my hours any more and part-time is out of the question.

But I have worked so hard to get here, against all odds. I don't want to throw it all away.

My point is that being a mother is not a job, you can do both well..and I think Miso is.
Yes, 20 minutes of good interaction may very well be remembered by my DDs....and yes they will remember good stuff from their nanny too. Mothers don't have the monopoly on the good stuff....

I'm not the same poster as mozhe. I never post in multiple names anywhere. Both apparently have 5 children however and work.

It's interesting that most of the intemperate lanuguage always comes from stay at home mothers whereas working mothers are reasonable and balanced in their speech and happy to see both sides, as if the stay at home ones have grudges and chips and things to prove.

It is not selfish to work outside the home as one person suggested, I think. Fathers do it and many children prefer their parents both to work and sometimes the children are better off for it. It is simply a different way of living. In fact in history most mothers have always worked and still do across most of the globe.

Absolutely Xenia, working mothers are in the majority worldwide..and I also think that just slinging insults is unproductive and childish. It is however interesting that mothers who call themselves SAHMs get sooooo hot under the collar when challenged. I consider myself a fulltime mother that works productively/economically outside the home.
And yes,HMC, there are people out there, possibly several of us who have similarish views and want to discuss them....

My gut feeling - miso - is stick at it; try not to make any unnecessary sacrifices.

I think work from home/find another job suggestions may be a bit of a red herring - you might end up investing lots of time into trying to get something off the ground, just to find yourself working longer hours for less money in something that you enjoy less. Trading is pretty unique (for better for worse) as a working environment.

Having said that, I'd definitely try to have the balls to manipulate my work situation.

You need to start off with an ideal scenario and see which bits of it might be achievable. What upsets you most about current situation? Unpredicatability? Bringing work home? Not having one free weekday with your girls? Total number of hours spent with your girls?

Then be ballsy about trying to get it. I always think that if you're too timid to fight your case on what is important to you personally, then you're probably too timid to fight your companies corner professionally. That is, consider it in the same light as any other political negotiation you do at work.

If you've been in the industry for a while, you probably have decent contacts... anyone out there who may be interested in poaching you in return for better terms... any working mothers you know whose experience you can benefit from ... presuming you've asked your boss? A slight sideways shuffle (e.g. becoming a structurer, or an analyst)might make this more achievable.Have you considered working contracts? A different city (a bit of a long shot, but perhaps doing a stint in Europe will get you 'off the radar' enough to allow you to work shorter hours, without leaving a CV gap).

A friend of my Dh works on a trading desk (but admittedly not a trader - more of an IT dude). He has a great thing going where he and his family live in scandinavia; he travels to london one week in every four and teleworks the rest of the time. He cycles his kids into school every morning; and seems to pull a lot of late nights to get the work done.

I think you should be proud to have done well with your career - and I think your Dds will be proud of you too, so long as you set things up in the way of 'grown ups have to balance a lot of demands on their time' rather than 'the office always comes first'.

Don't feel guilty about working per se. Go with your gut instincts on what the real issues are for your family. and to try to figure out effective solutions, rather than just be blown about by other people's world views.

How old are you? Only thing about trading, is that I don't think it is realistic for people to speak of a thirty year career ahead of you in the same field. Traders' careers are about as long lasting as premiership footballers. Depeding how near to forty you are, you may in any case need to start developing a 'Plan B'.

I'd be ruthless on cutting all the other crap out. Make sure that you sacrifice all the less important stuff before you cut on things that matter to you. Move to Discovery Dock (or wherever is immediately next door to your work); cut out the commute entirely. Have the full suite of cleaners/concierges/assistants to deal with chores. Don't sweat dull social engagements. Accept that you don't cook; buy your clothes in capsule once a season; take hair/make up time down to as near zero as you can.

Good luck with it all. Remember - what matters it what works for your unique family. Your girls won't love you any less or develop any worse just because you work. But you do need to be true to yourself, rather than be bullied into maintaining the status quo.

I have just read through this thread and found Kif's last post really interesting and supportive to the OP. I am going through a similar period in my life but am moving towards a 'third' way, involving re-structuring my work rather than giving it up. I strongly agree with the advice on moving as close as possible to work and on paring things down and getting help in the home from other professionals. I have a cleaner who really has changed our lives and has made home a happier place to be. Being semi-nocturnal has helped me to stay on top of work but none of my male colleagues are sending work emails at 3am and I do feel worn down by it quite frequently.

I have really enjoyed some of the points made on here and I admire Xenia and mozhe's points about working women being in the majority in other parts of the world.

miso, I really hope that you can build a new work/life balance which will make you feel happier and give you more time with your children. I admire you for all you have achieved and really wish you well.

Hmm... this thread has really got to people hasn't it?!

My thoughts are these : miso - if you enjoy your job, I would stick at it. Your children will be at school soon, and then what will you do? You don't sound like the kind of woman who wants to be a 'housewife' (though there is nothing wrong with that if that is your choice!). I appreciate that you can't work part time etc in your field - it is all or nothing. That presents you with the problem - I'd stick with all for now.

Other chains of thought on here:

1. Xenia - yes, I totally agree that it shouldn't automatically be women who become the stay-at-home-parent - if the father wants to he should also be able to without people thinking he is odd etc. However, in reality the biological fact that women are the ones who have babies mean that they are the ones who stay home/downsize their careers. I was a senior associate in a large City law firm before giving up to have my first child. The truth of the matter is that as soon as my pregnancy was public I had 'blotted my copybook' so far as career progression was concerned. This would only have got worse with subsequent babies, so I decided to enjoy life as a SAHM for a while. DH is striving ahead in his career - not because he wouldn't or couldn't be at home, but because one of us needs to for the sake of financial security etc, and it made more practical sense for it to be him. I do not feel like a maidservant, lesser citizen, as though I am leeching off him or any of those things - he is proud of me and appreciates what I do for our family. Until I became a mother I contributed financially on at least an equal basis, and I know that the home we live in, the life we lead is as much due to those years of my hard work as his. And one day I will work again, so I don't feel as though I am at all 'parasitic'. As for worrying about what to say to people at parties when asked what I do, well that is just ridiculous. Only a very insecure and self-obssessed person would give that a second thought.

1. I do not feel that my education has been/is being wasted. To say that there is no point studying/working hard pre-children is plainly ridiculous - at 18 I didn't even know whether I wanted children, let alone that I would meet someone I would want to have them with (or, indeed, that I would be able to have them). I had a great career pre-children, and I could have continued with it had I chosen to. It is always something to fall back on, and I fully expect my skills and education to be transferable at some point in the future. There is also the fact that I would rather an intelligent and wordly-wise person (i.e me ) brings up my children rather than some 18 year old nursery nurse or similar.

1. True feminists would agree that it is all about options i.e. if you want to stay at home and are able to, and choose to - then fantastic. Surely that is a huge victory for women?

1. I don't understand Xenia's bitterness towards SAHMs - I respect your choice to work and that is clearly the best thing for you and your children. Children will not fare well if brought up by a SAHM who doesn't want to be there. What I don't 'get' is why you are getting your knickers in such a twist about women who choose to stay home - yes, you say you don't know why they would want to, but there is more to it than that - you are very angry about it and I just can't see why

1. For what it's worth, I do find life as a SAHM repetitive, relentless, lonely and soul-destroying at times. I am NOT one of those precious earth-mothery types. Yes I do find 'the wheels on the bus' deadly boring. I find mothers groups deadly dull most of the time. I do miss the intellectual stimulation that my old life provided me with. HOWEVER, I would still rather be here doing this than anything else at the moment. These years are short - one day my children will be at school and not interested in 'the wheels on the bus' any more. Then I will find something that I want to do, that I can fit in around my family, and I will try to make that work. My children will ALWAYS come first though. Yes, SAHM life is boring at times, but it isn't about ME, it is about my children and our family life. I know I am doing the right thing by all of us (and no, I don't feel like a martyr).

1. Xenia - this is a load of tosh 'It's interesting that most of the intemperate lanuguage always comes from stay at home mothers whereas working mothers are reasonable and balanced in their speech and happy to see both sides, as if the stay at home ones have grudges and chips and things to prove.' I guess you want a rise from me - however, I just feel bemused!! What is your motivation for saying something so silly? I have no grudges and nothing to prove! I am just quietly going about my life, exercising my choices about how I want to raise my children.

1. I feel privileged to even be able to have this debate - whilst not rolling in money, we have enough that I can even contemplate being at home full-time. There are not many women for whom this is the case. SAHM/WOHM debate is largely irrelevant for most people - they simply have to work (and then come home to the drudgery that is cooking/cleaning/bottom-wiping etc on top of a day's work). Not all women can afford to delegate the tasks they don't like Xenia - you are in a very fortunate position (yes, I know you work hard for it, but still.....).

Misosoup,

If you think that your kids aren't getting enough time with their parents, surely your DH should be the one to give up his job? It just makes sense that the parent with a lower income should stay with the kids.

I think two hours of quality time per day plus weekends with the kids is a lot. I only work part-time and have to say most of the time I just ignore the kids and let them amuse themselves while I channel surf. I suspect you do a lot more with them in that two hours than you might if you stayed at home.

Please don't give up. I know plenty of women in your position who have given up, and they all regret it. I sense a certain wistfulness in your tone "I have worked so hard to get here..." and I really think you might regret it if you threw it all away. Your kids will be just fine.

QM, good points. I don't feel bitter about stay at home mothers. I think it was some of them on the thread below who had selectively picked bits out of what I'd written and then reworded it, interpreted it in a more extreme way, that was all.

Another person said:
""Every mother is a full time mother AND stays home too, it's just that some of us put in a full day's work too.." Um - unless you've mastered the art of astral projection, that's hogwash."

I don't agree with that. You are full time. You might be stay at home but the children are in school 9 - 4 or you're at work 8 - 6. I don't see why particularly with children at school one is a different kind of mother from the other just because one cleans the house/goes to the gym or whatever during the school day and one is economically active. You're still a mother, full time. I know loads of stay at home mothers who have nannies and au pairs. Are they full time? Is it an hour thing and you count the hours?

What particularly interests me is why so many women marry men who earn more than they do even though we don't really have much of a pay gap at younger ages. That often is one of the primary causes it's the woman to give up work. I didn't give up work - my exhusband earned less. The poster here she and her husband are still both working (perhaps in part because she earns so much more than him) and QM presumably gave up work because her husband earns more or about the same. So is it just economics and therefore it's women's choices and decisions to "marry up" (4 in 5 women earn less than their husbands) that leads to most people at home being female. Why do they marry up? That might be the key issue.

Agree with HC - you have not overstepped the mark at all HMC - this thread would test he patience of a saint and your posts have been superb

Hi Misosoup,
I have just read some of the responses to your message and have a suggestion: I am an ex M&A banker with a bulge bracket firm and decided to leave banking for lifestyle reasons. I then built up a training business delivering to the investment banking community. This allowed me to use my skills and also stay up-to-date. I work from home a lot, have normal working hours and have even managed to reduce my working week to 4 days (does not work every week). I have 2 children under 5. Remuneration is very good albeit not comparable with IBD days. There are alternatives out there if you are looking to have a challenge outside the family. We are always looking for more trainers with the type of your experience!

"It's interesting that most of the intemperate lanuguage always comes from stay at home mothers whereas working mothers are reasonable and balanced in their speech and happy to see both sides, as if the stay at home ones have grudges and chips and things to prove."

Xenia I have never laughed so hard. The reason that the SAHM's are getting annoyed is that you are INSULTING them.

I work part-time so I kind of straddle this debate a bit but you are being the most offensive, obnoxious, anti-woman poster I have ever heard. You have suggested that SAHMs are worthless drudges, whose days are boring and pointless, and that they waste their education. You have not read any of their valid and well-argued points, or tried to see any other views as valid, and have just responded to the bits of their posts that annoy you.

I imagine that this steamrollering over any opinion but your own, and blatant disregard for any members of the species who doesn't share your views or priorities, has got you where you are professionally, so you are proud of it.

But I think it makes you an arse.

As someone who is educated to postgraduate level, I think the premise that your education is wasted if you choose to stay at home with your children when they are young is absolute nonsense! I traded down from being a highly flying business manager in an international organisation in order to work part-time because I'm fortunate to be with a company that allows that and it is what I wanted. If I wanted to stay at home, I know that my PhD in Chemistry and my Diploma in Management would not have been wasted at all.

Right now, my 2yo DTS know about the solar system because I share with them my interest in astronomy. They can name all the planets in our solar system. I'm an analytical person and I do things with my boys that draw on those skills. I play number games with the boys. I like to express myself through song and dance and the boys love this too. I love to read and the boys love me to read to them. They can tell the difference between a magpie and blackbird because I point this out to them when we go out for walks. I'm teaching them about trees atm and they are learning to distinguish a horeschesnut leaf from a sweet chestnut/maple/oak/plane/birch etc.

I just think it is very narrow-minded, very chauvinistic and quite frankly pathetically sad for other women to infer that SAHM are losers with nothing to offer because frankly, that is absolutely rubbish.

I understand your dilemna completely as I was in the same situation 3 years ago. For the record I gave up a trading job to have 2 DS, now age 3 and 1. Do I regret it? Some days I do but on the whole I don't. Obviously the drop in salary was enormous but I'm lucky as my partner also earns a decent wage. The boys and their various antics have been extremely rewarding and I've been pleasantly surprised with how much I've enjoyed making female friends after 12yrs in a dealing room. Go with your gut but don't worry about not suceeding at a later date - something will come up. Anyway how many 40 plus traders are still plugging away - only the divorced ones?!

"What particularly interests me is why so many women marry men who earn more than they do even though we don't really have much of a pay gap at younger ages."

Why do women marry men who earn more than they do? Umm....perhaps because they love them? I married a man who is very well paid ( in a similar job to Miso's) and earns a lot more than I do. it certainly didn't occur to me to turn him down on the basis that he was successful. Besides, no one with an income less than mine offered!

Don't you think you might be overanalysing just a tiny bit, Xenia?

I think the money angle is irrelevant. Miso clearly says she enjoys her job. If you find a job you enjoy and it has the bonus of being well paid, for heaven's sake, don't quit.

Ah FHOTM, I'm so sorry you're feeling like this.

I don't think at all that your rock solid convictions were unfounded: it sounds to me as though you have given your daughter a fantastic start in life, and more to the point, you made the right decision at the time.

FloatMed, I just had to respond - to say it is a lucky lucky woman who never doubts, and/or never is put in a position to doubt, what she has chosen to do and how she has chosen to do it. There may be people for whom the "right answer" (whether it's staying at home, or going out to work, or whatever) is just there, and obvious, and undeniably the right thing for them - but I know hardly any of those.

Most of us muddle through, and wobble, and have days when we think we are making a horrid hash of the whole thing, and days when our blessings seem countless. So ... trust yourself, do.

FHOTM, I don't feel that you've wasted those years at all! The first 3 years are so important in a child's life and you've been able to be there for all of her first milestones

If it makes you feel any better, I had sold my practice and gone back to school for an MBA just before getting pg with ds. I now have a lovely MBA degree hanging on the wall (well, actually I think it's moldering in the attic ) and have continued to work in my original profession part-time. So much for my mid-life work change! But, of course, having ds - and there's ds2 on the way - was a mid-life change in itself.

Will these "lost" career years make a difference to me later on? Maybe, hard to say. Would I do anything different if I knew that it had? Absolutely not.

FH, I certainly didn't want anyone to feel like that. I'm a single parent myself.

One point I was trying to make below which may be got misconstrued is that in some jobs you have a fixed period to do well. Some you really haven't got much career left after 40. Others that's not the case. So in terms of "education waste" that depends on the job. I know doctors who go part time or take a few years out but then can get back into being a GP and work for 20 more years when the children are grown. Some other careers are not the same.

Education waste is fascinating. No one has really said when 4 in 5 women marry men who earn more than them. I suppose women look for security. It's traditional the man earns more. It makes some men feel better if it's that way round and there is a subconscious process going on in that you look for someone you know you might be able to justify giving up work to look after his children for. if you earn 10 times what he does it's a bit harder to make that case, althoguh not impossible.

I just taking on graduate debt of £20 - £30k and postgraduate qualifications, putting your personal life on hold for 10 years whilst you do a job and then on the point when you might be starting to earn good money and save you give it up to have babies for the only 10 crucial years that matter in your career ladder and then you grope around for something to do from home. Why not just have fun, never mind about the exams beyond your GCSEs which will allow you to name the planets and the like, be relaxed, healthy, happy, attractive and get married? I suppose one issue on that is you may never find someone to marry so to protect yourself financially you need to (although you're probably more likely to following that route than the 10 years of 10 hour days in the office).

Interesting stuff. It's great for people to debate things. It would be dull if everyone had the same views.

I think your posts have made quite a lot of people feel hurt and belittled, Xenia. Reading through them again, it's difficult to believe you didn't anticipate that that would be their effect.

"Why not just have fun, never mind about the exams beyond your GCSEs which will allow you to name the planets and the like, be relaxed, healthy, happy, attractive and get married?"

Xenia, very few of us know what we want out of life at 18yo. I certainly did not want marriage and kids. I did not marry until I was 36yo and then had my DTS at 39yo. My education is not wasted because it has helped me to be the articulate, knowledge seeking, invesigative person that I am. I will use these skills to enrich my DC childhood and instil in them a love of learning, the art of seeking out information, thinking outside the box, to always question and challenge etc.

The other thing you have to remember is that many people (men and women) who study for degrees change careers and end up doing something that is not associated with what they studied anyway. People change - it is a fact of life.

FHOTM, what a heartbreaking post that was. Anyone who has children, full stop, makes sacrifices financially and in their personal career, no matter whether they carry on working or give up.

I think it was a very brave decision for you to stay at home and look after DD, with v difficult financial circumstances. The OP is earning bucketloads and yet still envies you in many ways. You could never reclaim those years with your little girl.

Unfortunately I couldn't afford to give up work altogether, not for fancy hols but just to pay the mortgage. There are loads of us out there like that. But I was lucky enough to have an employer that lets me work part time. I try to be as fulfilled as possible working, and try to look to the long term, but I still miss out enormously on my children.

None of us have no regrets. We feel like we can't win. If we work we feel bad, if we don't work we feel bad.

How do we turn this around? Surely this is the new challenge of feminism in the 21st century?

Hope I'm not too late for this thread as I am in a similar position to misosoup, but a few years on. I have a City job with a good salary and my DSs are now 11, 9 and 7. I worked full time until two years ago then went down to a 4-day week, and always had nannies (but my husband is self-employed and pretty flexible). What I've done is to invest as much money as possible (in property and funds) over the past 10 years, and next year I'm giving up work when some of my company shares mature, as I fancy a change. We didn't want to send the kids to secondary school in London, so we're moving out and have enough for a house in the country and a flat in London, plus rental income from the other properties. Instead of the corporate life I'll try and do a bit of consultancy and/or charity work to keep my hand in and see how it goes.

Hope this doesn't sound too smug, because it obviously hasn't all been plain sailing, but I've worked towards a "10-year plan". So if you think this way of playing it has merit, misosoup, you could:

• Set yourself a goal (3, 5, 10 years etc) for when you want to have a lifestyle change and in the meantime try and salt away as much as possible
• Have a word with your HR department and try to go down to a 4-day week - under EU law your firm has to offer some flexibility to women with children under six
• Get as much help in the house as you can so that all free time can be devoted to the family and not taken up with domestic/adminstrative chores

On the work-life balance question, I calculated that - taking holiday entitlement, bank holidays and weekends into account - working a 4-day week means that I spend 181 days at work and 184 days at home.