Offer of employment withdrawn because I asked to see maternity policies?

[mentol]

Hello!
I was wondering if I could get your help on this issue. I suspect I have had an offer of employment withdrawn because I asked to see the maternity policies.
The employer was very keen on having me and has been doing everything to have me working for them. However, I needed to see the maternity policies before I signed the contract and those were not provided. Although I feared this would happen, I asked about those policies. That was last week.

The email I got in response said they couldn't give it to me easily and they asked exactly which policies did I want to see. The response also had, for the first time, a set deadline for giving a start date on that same week or the offer would be withdrawn.

Since then, their emails have been very "cold" and I felt immediately that something was going on. The person that dealt with me directly throughout the process (the manager) was very insisting for a start date and he wasn't before. I had the feeling he wanted me to say no. I sent him the start date before the deadline and said that I would be discussing my notice with my current employer this week (Tuesday or Wednesday). Since then, I haven't heard anything back.

Today, I got an email saying that the offer has been withdrawn because they cannot wait for me to start on the date I gave them (which is 7 days later than their suggested start date) as the business cannot cope with that. They didn't discuss with me an alternative date. I am convinced this is because I asked for the policies.

I requested these policies from someone on H&R but she didn't sent it to me. I sent an email to the manager in response to his request for the start date, saying that I didn't receive some policies I had requested and that I needed them before I made a final decision. The person I requested these policies from was not in on that day. The manager sent me immediately the policies without me telling him which policies I had requested.

For me, it is clear that they have withdraw the offer because of that, possibly because they fear I may be pregnant or having a child soon. I don't think they can do this and I would like to hear from you on how to best proceed.

I don't want to work for a company that does this kind of things but I want them to be reported if this is what they are doing to women. In my opinion, this is discrimination. There's also the issue of me discussing it with my current managers which the company knew was going to happen today at the latest. They have put me in a unpleasant position.

I would really like to know what you think of this. Can they do this? Should I report this to someone? Any ideas on how should I proceed? Any help would be much appreciated.

This is a very well know and respectable company. I don't think this is the normal conduct of the company and I think it may be a local thing.

Thank you!

but if the salaries are different you need to qualify the benefits you outline.

how do you quantify in cash terms e.g. the value of "emergency leave to look after dependents"?

That's a big assumption, that organisations who don't offer generous enhanced maternity/sick pay/paid dependents leave etc etc place a lower value on their workforce than employers that do offer those things.

Many employers (particularly smaller ones) value their workforce enormously and go to great lengths to show that in their attitude, their approach, how they treat staff day to day, how flexible they are, how much effort they make to develop staff, how much effort they make to acknowledge efforts and give good feedback, without having the finances to commit to generous enhanced arrangements for absence.

qualify = quantify

@Flowery, I agree it is a big assumption, and there will almost certainly be exceptions, but has been true in my experience.
@Yourmyfave - for that example, I would use a weighted average so: If in an average year I would expect to use half a day and in a bad year I would expect to use 5 days then I would go with something like (4(.5)+(5))/5 multiplied by your estimated net salary per working day.

so around 1-2 days per year on average?

i don't have an paid EL policy - but 1-2 days per year from someone with a low absence rate/keeps clients happy/arrives at work on time is absolutely fine.

i don't think you can meaningfully compare a small co and a large co by comparing policies. but then does anyone do that? for large co.s i can see it makes sense.

@Yourmyfave yes, I am mainly thinking about large organisations. I have no experience of working in small organisations I'm afraid

I don't even think it's a case of exceptions, because that implies that it is generally the case that employers who can afford generous enhanced absence arrangements value their staff more than those who can't. Just not true.

If one compares employers in the same sector, of the same size and financial performance and one invests in these things and the other pays bare minimum and shareholders pocket the rest, then that definitely is a valid and meaningful comparison and is also likely to give an indication of how staff are valued more generally.

Before sending a complaint...

You could send them an email saying that you hadn't appreciated that an earlier start date was such a priority.
Now that you are aware of this you are happy to bring the start date forward a week to comply with their requirements.

See how they respond.

Thank you all for such helpful replies.

I just need some facts:

1. Can an offer of employment be withdrawn at anytime?
2. Can an offer of employment be withdrawn after the company asks for a start date by a certain deadline, the prospective employee gives the start date, and then the response is that the offer has been withdrawn for a reason that wasn't made clear in the offer?
3. Can an offer of employment be withdrawn at the same time that the prospective employee is informing their current employer that they are leaving because the company concerned lead them to believe they had a job at this company?

For those asking, I have seen the policies and given a exact start date. This start date is on the same month that I told this company since day one would be the earliest I could start.

1. No. Once an offer has been made and accepted, there is a contract. Conditions may have been specified, so obviously if these conditions aren't met, it can be withdrawn, or if the employee breaches the contract in some way.

1. See above for information about when an offer can be withdrawn.

1. See above for when an offer can be withdrawn. Whether or not the employee has chosen to tell someone is completely irrelevant.

Can I just say well done mentol for trying to do something about this. Maternity and other benefits are as much a part of the "package" as salary IMO - no-one would suggest accepting a job when you didn't know how much you'd be paid! If no-one ever makes a fuss about these things then nothing will ever change. All power to you, whatever route you go down to kick up a stink about this.

I agree it's good mentol is going to challenge them, but I think comparing the significance of regular salary to whether or not maternity pay is enhanced in deciding about a job is a bit daft tbh.

This type of thing is soooo rubbish but so common.

Yes, why shouldn't you see all of their policies? You are accepting a job without being fully aware of the conditions otherwise. It's okay for them to know everything about you, isn't it?

I completely support you mentol but do think you had a lucky escape. I'm not sure I would have the energy to fight it. I would probably tell them where to stick their job.

It's about time employers were made to disclose this type of information publicly by law.

the problems with that is either you make it apply to all businesses or just ones above a certain size. and 50% of the UKs workers work for small businesses.

as a small business owner, you have to understand a lot of employment law already. personally i find the current level of 'red tape' perfectly acceptable. but i have benefitted from a good education and we need to be careful about discouraging small companies from expanding. more paperwork will discourage job creation.

interestingly i run my own business because i took my previous employer to court for sexual discrimination meaning i was unemployable in my industry. which now means ML will never be a possibility. oh the irony.

i think much of the employer/employee relationship assumes the employer is male and would never need ML themselves.

"It's about time employers were made to disclose this type of information publicly by law."

What information? Their maternity policy? That pre-supposes everyone has one, which they don't.

If you are adamant that you had in fact accepted the offer; why were you hellbent on getting your hands on the maternity policy to help you decide?
If you were genuinely happy to start on the date you indicated to them, a tie breaker wouldn't really have been necessary, would it?
It could be argued that their asking about your availability was just further information gathering before a formal offer was actually made.

To those of you who think it's silly to ask for the mat leave policy, would it change your mind if for instance you would effectively lose out on about £40k per baby? That was the difference for me between one job ( I left before pregnant) and another. Amount is linked to salary so for some it would be more or less, but I would imagine significant for everyone.

Both very big organisations.

I don't understand how I am managing not to make myself clear about this. I have asked for the policy before I indicated the start date. There is no question that the offer was made. I had a contract sent to me, I went to the company to see the offices and meet everyone just 2 weeks ago. A new contract was going to be sent as there was a mistake in the original one.

Unless the acceptance of the offer has to be a signed contract, then I have definitely accepted the job. If it has to be a signed contract, then I haven't accepted it because the contract was being modified (I have the older version though). However, I have everything in writing as most of the "negotiation" was done by email.

When you have two jobs to choose from and one offers a very good salary, quite flexible working, you love it, and it offers a great pension and great maternity pay, why wouldn't you ask about it for the other job? It just doesn't make sense to me. I may be daft for some but what really matters is that I am very happy that I asked! I am sure these people would get rid of me as soon as they thought I was going to be off sick/maternity/whatever. And I would also be seen as someone that shouldn't progress in her career because one day or another I would have a baby.

YouAreMyFavouriteWasteOfTime: why were you unemployable in your industry for taking you employer to court?

Thanks flowery, Trapper, and all the others that have been discussing the issue. It is healthy to have people discussing it. I think everyone agrees that the current situation is awful in that employers know that they cannot discriminate women if they have plans of starting a family some time in the future, but keep doing it. Women shouldn't be afraid of asking question related to maternity pay. Having a newborn is stressful enough on its own, no one should have to think about financial issues at a time like that! These morons forget that someone had to give birth to them!

DingDongFestivelyOnHigh: I welcome your perspective and everyone else's. When I'm saying that people are wrong in saying that I shouldn't ask about this, I am not trying to shut them down or anything. I am just expressing why I feel I should ask and everyone else should as well. However, if you are unemployed and only have 1 job offer, then do not ask!!!

"Unless the acceptance of the offer has to be a signed contract, then I have definitely accepted the job."

If the contract needed to be reissued because of an error it's obviously fine not to have physically signed it yet, but in what way did you accept? Did you email whoever confirming that, or was your acceptance verbal?

I have just looked on the Citizens Advice Bureau website on employment contract advice. (It is very good). There are two types of employment offer, conditional and unconditional. Conditional is normal and in this case the employer appears to have, belatedly, stipulated a start date. This may not be what you wanted, but it is there. Unconditional offers are very rare. The start date contract was introduced into the mix after your oral acceptance of the job, but their offer nonetheless now has the start date condition. As you only had an oral contract, the terms of which would be difficult to prove, the introduction of the start date and their knowledge that you could not accept it, probably gives them the upper hand to withdraw the contract. This may, or may not, be the real reason for the contract withdrawal, but you will be very hard pushed to prove it. At least you currently have a good job with good conditions.

"As you only had an oral contract, the terms of which would be difficult to prove"

The terms are easy to prove as they were in writing not oral. The OP has been given a written contract and the start date issue was also communicated in writing via email I think. The terms are easy to prove, and unless I've missed something, the OP hasn't specified how she accepted the offer, whether it was verbally or in writing.

I'm not entirely clear whether the OP met the initial condition related to start date and whether the new condition introduced at the time the offer was withdrawn was different to the initial condition.

If the OP accepted the offer, met the initial conditions specified and then after that they withdrew the offer by imposing a new condition without even giving the OP a chance to meet the new condition, that's not on. If their requirements around a start date changed they should have contacted the OP, said "actually we need you to start earlier, can you do that?" Instead it sounds like they just withdrew the offer entirely, which is what gives the very strong impression that the start date issue was not the reason at all.

It's also ridiculous for them to argue that they had to withdraw because the company literally could not cope one week. Have they really got someone else lined up that quickly? If the OP had a long notice period that might be more reasonable on their part.

Whether they were in breach of contract or not depends on whether it was clear the OP had accepted the offer (thereby forming a contract that could be broken) and whether she had met the conditions specified at the time the offer was made.

mentol: why were you unemployable in your industry for taking you employer to court?

It was my first job and i worked in a very macho industry. no one at work other than my manager (who was friends outside of work with the harasser) spoke to me for 3 months.

if they refuse to speak with me - I am hardly going to get a glowing reference from anyone. how do you get a new job in a very competitive industry without a very positive reference?

i had worked v hard and done v well at school and then uni and my career (which I was number 1 in my graduate intake) was finished.

there was nothing else to do but pull myself up by my own boot straps.

I have to say the concept of being paid your salary when on ML is very far from my own experience and completely alien. until men equally share childcare, I think overall commercial organisations will continue to discriminate against women. after all they want to keep costs down and overall a woman will sometimes cost more than a man with the same skills.