Sarah Phillimore and Robin Moira White interviewed by Andrew Doyle

Thanks for the link above, Sarah was magnificent.

@Spero I have no idea how you managed to remain so icily polite, but your clear, calmly delivered answers were such a contrast to the deflections and waffling from Robin.

While I do not condone Robin's use of Vikki Thompson's suicide to try to make a point, I am sure there are equally young, vulnerable men, in prison for non violent crimes, who have not changed their identity. Equally at risk of abuse and sexual assault. Should they be moved to the female estate?

@MorvenOfMalvern makes a really good point about pronoun use. RMW brought up the Equal Treatment Bench Book when they were both with Andrew Doyle IIRC, so would Robin go against that if Robin was involved in this particular case?

@Spero You are a force of nature. Full of admiration for you

Men must not be in female prisons. It needs to be made very clear that all spaces where women sleep, undress or play sports will be governed by sex and sex alone. Trans identifying men ought to be given a choice between a male prison or a separate unit for such men.

This is NOT 'segregation' akin to apartheid as Robin suggested. It is protecting the privacy rights of women, as well as their physical safety.

You cannot change sex. That's the fundamental issue. I agree that trans identifying men could be especially vulnerable in male prisons, hence provide a separate option. But women are not a dustbin into which vulnerable men can be swept.

A risk assessment was done when the original female spaces were approved/built.

That includes all prisons, changing rooms, toilets, shelters etc etc etc.

The risk of males was assessed and female spaces were a mitigation to reduce the risk to females from males.

That's all that is needed here.

I'm not sure this is quite the right thread for this, but I have to put it somewhere before it completely melts my brain.

I have seen elsewhere on the internet a serious suggestion that the correct thing to do with pronouns for 'Isla' (and presumably also 'Tiffany') is to use the ones they request because ...

[please sit down, and remove any delicate items from your immediate vicinity before reading on]

... if they are really trans, that's the kind thing to do; and if they're lying then misgendering will cause them distress, which will punish them for lying.

WTF!?!!

And Robin gave Sarah something of a gift at the start by stating that Robin would use they/them when referring to Adam, as was unsure of the sincerity of Adam's current identity.

That's the whole bloody point!

Which of these men are genuinely just trying to alleviate a body dysmorphia condition and which are bad men exploiting a loophole? And how are we meant to tell the difference? Not to mention that while NAMALT and also NATWALT, some are.

But, but, but, there are violent women, too! Yes. Yes, there are violent women too, but that is not what this segment was about, was it? This segment was specifically about whether men who called themselves women - for whatever reason - should be housed in the male or female prison estate.

A similar tactic was used earlier in the week from RMW when asked whether Robin thought women should have single sex spaces. And rather than giving an answer of what Robin thought, the answer given was 'Not under the law as it stands' (5.41 in the clip in the OP)

Another thank you Spero. When you say:
"I think this - finally! - has breached the dam. I am very sad and shocked that the mutilation of children didn't do it, but let's just get it done!"

I share that sadness and shock. I know that parents are finally waking up to the grooming of children in schools that "wrong bodies" are a thing with drug &, surgery fixing them. Let's hope that attention will move urgently to what's happening and that children will finally be protected from the adults peddling these lies to them.

Why are some people so eager to compare it to race? Presumably Robin thinks that there is a race that carries out 98% of all sexual assaults. I would not be surprised if Robin did think that - remembering a now-deleted post a while ago that implied awful things about a certain race.

Spero, as you know, RMW is the expert at bringing in false analogies to try to pad out their argument and divert emotions. You were fantastic at shooting each one down.

Why aren't the risk assessments being done within the male estate and vulnerable males being house accordingly?

Rates of males with additional learning needs is very high in prison. Younger men and gay men will be at the same risk of rape.

30 year old males at peak strength who need 11 men to hold them will be being looked after by female staff in women's prisons. The trans identified male RMW mentioned was clearly very let down by the system. But the male system.

The men need to sort out the men. It's not the women's job.

This seems to be stating, promoting the falsehood that keeping a lad out of women's spaces is akin to apartheid in South Africa. When this is what the lad wants to happen. It appears to be all about what the lad thinks and wants. Irrespective of reality, or impact on women.

Disclaimer: I am not of the 'belief', or susceptible to the 'doctrine' that someone magically changes sex.

But, but, but, there are violent women, too!

of course there are! And they're then segregated within women's prison and not dumped into male prisons.

There clearly needs to be reorganisation within male prisons.

It also seems oddly common that it's transwomen with sexual offences seeking women's prisons.

Sorry, one of the interviewees seemed to be claiming that. So all that due diligence when women's prisons etc were set up is literal apartheid. The goal of women's welfare seems to be something which women don't deserve.

Posting from another thread:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/e1e9955e-9f52-11ed-b4bb-1b45ac508ab9?shareToken=cee741126350990cbbb2afb0edc81e56

Calum Steele is general secretary of the Scottish Police Federation

This guy is having none of it

Share token care of bingbong on another thread

Surely, surely on of the main reasons for having separate male and female prisons is to prevent female prisoners getting pregnant? Whether consential or not?

unlike these ridiculous men in balaclavas I am not afraid to show my face and I am able to direct my anger into coherent words and positive action.

Yes! I could see it and feel it. There is something so immensely powerful and bullet-proof when a persons feelings and their words unapologetically line up in the truth! You seemed to glow with light!

Really a beautiful thing to behold.

💐 thank you again Spero

I noticed Calum Steele referred to killing foxes, which amused me.

But,@LaughingPriest, if one race/ethnic group did in fact commit 98% of crime, or even one type of crime, against another such group I'd support separation of those groups.

Imagine - 98% of violent crime committed by white men against black men. Solution - lock the black guys up with the white. Nope. Plainly wrong. Or at least in any civilised society it would be wrong.

This is such a good point. With Jim Crow or Apartheid- it wasn’t the black people asking to be segregated was it?

Where as women, the ones with lesser social status and power, are the ones asking to be segregated for our own safety (privacy/dignity/etc). It’s the diametrically opposed power dynamic from racial segregation.

Slippery gits.

I know that I am going to annoy people with what I am about to say, because I actually annoy myself.

Did anyone else feel a kind of female-socialised pity for RMW in that GBN piece? The fact that RMW had conceded on a few key points and knew it deep down. The uncomfortable realisation about the whole thing being a sham. I saw it in RMWs eyes, body language and voice.

That masculine hankering, lust, for the adrenaline rush of battle and victory. For years men, and some women who self-administer male levels of testosterone, have been riding on this high - this ‘fight’ and winning victories by whatever means necessary “all’s fair in love and war”.

To now see it in the cold light of day, that it was all bullying, mania, unjust, stolen territories.

And what for? So that some people can live a lie and never need to admit or be held to account for it, no matter who is harmed by the lie.

Its not really the sort of fight that stirs the blood is it?

@Spero is this true? The risk assessment is to the male prisoner? Not the women?

twitter.com/emilia_sinclair/status/1618709973902712832?s=46&t=xBiND0JE4WMBU5FNRZqpnQ

endless when the weak arguments RMW gave were stripped away, Robin conceded it was lunacy.

Robin certainly wasn't quite as pompous as when on the bbc debate with Sonia Sodah and other women a week or so ago.

No. Not for him no. I enjoyed it.

Both then I don't like him very much.