Sarah Phillimore and Robin Moira White interviewed by Andrew Doyle

How do they know that these children are making the right decision that will last a lifetime?

Why do you think they care?

My lightbulb moment a couple of years back: yes, they are in our spaces. Because NOBODY FUCKING ASKED US IF WE MINDED. It didn't even occur to them to do so.

Exactly this. Stonewall has directly influence organisations that employ something like half the UK workforce (I can’t remember their exact claim but it was significant) and indirectly affected thousands more with moves like ensuring that the NHS procurement process demands Stonewall style policies in prospective suppliers.

All of these organisations have been persuaded to ignore the provisions in the law that makes single sex spaces lawful and with the EA arguably a right that we can expect but this has been done by stealth and not with the agreement of the majority.

This has enabled them to argue that the GRC is another ‘small step’. A similar argument might be that as the police only manage to prosecute 1% of all rapes, we may as well decriminalise rape as it ‘won’t make much difference’.

True. I suppose I was talking hypothetically, I know they don’t really care.

It does amaze me that so many people are being told and presented with evidence that this is actively harmful to children and vulnerable people.

In a normal world most people would stop and consider that and even if they are not 100% convinced, at least not argue against preventative measures to keep children safe.

Why would anyone not prioritise prevention if even a small risk of harm to children?

Meanwhile, the increasingly irrelevant BBC Women's Hour is talking about the important issue of...crocheting!

"while I look female..." This sort of unrealistic assertion is quite common among TRAs. But if it were actually true, how would anyone know who they are for the purposes of marginalisation and discrimination?

It really is like a collective face blindness, isn't it? Longer hair plus skirt equals female.

Oh dear.. I missed that.

Sadly, that is only true for some people it seems who have told this individual. I have never yet seen someone answer the question of how do they know that women are not lying to them them women keep assuring them they look female.

That in itself must be a very hard thing to live with. Knowing that there is a very high probability that people are lying to you
so much.

I care because I remember so very clearly how horrible a time it was for me. With the hindsight of half a century I might be permitted to know what the right choices for me would have been all those years ago.

But I agree that making the wrong choices would be just as bad.

Im not medically qualified but those that are tell me that some young people know themselves well enough to make that choice. I believe I would have been one of those.

So to close off that choice would, in my view, be very cruel.

But every young person contemplating such a choice should have the best assistance available, given the consequences.

And yet over 40,000 detransitioners regret their blockers/hormones/surgery [and it rises every day].

As soon as 1 person regrets it, TRAs should be sitting back and saying to themselves 'What have we done'. And yet you plough on, representing women who just want spaces away from males, and stalking them on here correcting their words.

Hold your hands up. Who said bundle 5 times in front of a mirror?

Robin, by transitioning as an adult you have avoided osteoporosis, sterility and loss of sexual function. As a female you could go through menopause in your 20's, vaginally atrophy, and require a hysterectomy (not to mention less serious side effects such as 'male' patent baldness). No child should ever make such choices and it is not cruel to protect them until they are adults. That is why we will never give in.

There is a detransitioner in Canada who is so broken, that they are applying to be humanely killed under Canada's new initiative.

Why should Robin's nascissism be more important than the humanity for the hundreds of thousands of people broken by this insane ideology?

Was that in the video? Didn't catch that part. Personally what comes to mind watching Robin isn't "female" but rather something about grandmother and the wolf.

That said, I too was pleasantly surprised by the overall polite tone and by the relatively reasonable concessions. Maybe that just shows the level of batshit to which we've become habituated.

While I applaud Robin for attending and not speaking over Sarah in what was a calm and polite section overall, I would have liked to have heard Robin's answer to 'Do women have the right to single sex female spaces' rather than the 'not under the law'

Robin what you have to remember kids NOW live in a completely different environment. As anyone with kids at school knows it is not uncommon for there to be multiple "trans" "neogender" kids in the same class. As soon as one kid does it others follow. It is a tired cliche but we are talking about the same sort of trend we saw with subculture kids - goths, punks etc back in the day .

It comes with its own language, clothes etc. Obviously some of these kids are gay/bi but the actual gay kids might not even get involved in the subculture or find it shallow. It is attractive to a certain set of personalities/insecurities. Rife because social media is designed to make kids insecure and needy.

Hence the huge increase in mental health problems.

I have no idea if there are "genuine" trans kids out there, but what is certain now is a huge proportion of those declaring themselves that way are there because of peer online trends - the same reason there is a surge in self harm, viral mental illness via tiktok. This is all things which are happening and we are supposed to pretend the kids live in a bubble where they can know their true selves and are not being influenced by culture all around them. Unlike any other teens in the last 60 years, but in reality the sixties, punk, disco were the result of young people interacting with and pushing cultural shifts reacting to market forces and consumerism. Because there is money to be made.

Trans stuff, neogenders, Andrew Tate, tiktok, fast fashion it is all part of a cultural shift in teen identities which are more based on rapid online consumer trends than EVER before.

As both men and women are female according to White, that doesn't mean anything.

Men and women both look female to White.

I know right. I watched last night and I watched three people and listened to three people. Only one of them looked, and sounded like a female. And only one could truly see this mess from the perspective of women.

She was brilliant, shame her co debater Robin wasnt. Robin was to busy putting Robin's version of womanhood front and centre whilst ignoring the plight of actual women.

Im not medically qualified but those that are tell me that some young people know themselves well enough to make that choice. I believe I would have been one of those.

This is the sort of magical thinking that you persist with Robin that I’ve challenged you about before. You have no idea what you would have thought back then because you’re applying your modern day understanding to your childhood self. Your entire world view and your entire view of trans has been shaped by not having medical treatments when you were younger. Your entire life exists because you didn’t have treatments as a child. Your family, your sex life, your career. None of that could have happened with childhood transition. You have no idea that you would have been happier, your just assuming that because it was horrible, a different Sliding Doors moment would have made it less horrible. Do you honestly look at Jazz Jennings and say “I wish that was me”?

I am medically qualified. I say children - not “young people” - cannot consent to medical treatments. I am not alone. There are many medical professionals who agree with me. The only ones who say they can understand this are gender clinic specialists who are ideologically committed to this pathway of treatment. Why do you ignore the medical professionals who are concerned about consent?

Why is it “cruel” to prevent children from iatrogenic harm?

You live in a rose-tinted dream land where all your early dysphoria and middle-aged passing woes disappear if the time travelling Gender Fairy could just change your life decades ago. But you cannot possibly project forward from that pivotal moment and be sure of a happier life. And worst of all, despite these limitations that you don’t see, you persist in facilitating and advocating for childhood transition on the basis of this false ideal.

The fact that doctors transitioning children listen to people like you is one thing I am determined to hold them to account for. It’s possibly the worst reason for transitioning children, and that’s saying something.

It was inevitable, really.😶

Boiledbeetle has already posted the link to the Prospect piece when RMW discussed these issues with Kathleen Stock.

On 10th December 2021 at 10.50 RMW posted this in response to Campervan69:

'I spent some time working with a voice coach and exploring vocal surgery. Given the state of my vocal equipment, I couldn't raise the pitch of my voice without losing power and the surgery is too risky given how important my speaking voice is as a professional tool.

It would have been so much easier had I been able to avoid male puberty.'

This then led to some discussion about RMW's use of the word 'power' which, to be fair to RMW, I had interpreted as power in the sense of volume, projection etc, but some interpreted more in the abstract sense of power.

I will say nothing about RMW's statement in Prospect that RMW looks like a woman but does not sound like one of us.

Does anyone enjoy puberty? I know I found it massively traumatic.

No it was from an article

www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/essays/gender-wars-two-opposing-perspectives-on-the-trans-and-womens-rights-debate

. At the other end of the spectrum, while I look female, I sound male as I have done little to alter my speaking voice, as it is something I rely on in my job as a barrister.

@GrumpyPanda - RMW said in the Prospect article that RMW looks like a woman. That was in print. The discussion yesterday was obviously on television. I do wonder if RMW would have said that yesterday on a visual medium.

With the hindsight of half a century

I genuinely mean no disrespect for Robin, or for any other TW who says this sort of thing, when I point out that “the hindsight of half a century” wouldn’t normally be considered good evidence for anything, let alone for imposing on children experimental medical interventions that have never even been subjected to a controlled trial.

People confabulate their memories and edit their stories about themselves to reflect their self-image. It’s part of the human condition.

(And everyone’s self-image is distorted and self-serving to some extent, although in most cases it’s recognised that this is a character flaw that can cause problems for self and others.)