Rishi Sunak said…

I think that's unrealistic. Many issues about this debate have changed over the years and the current situation in schools is, in the scheme of things, pretty new so people are at different stages of awareness. For example it's not my world these days so I'm very much behind the curve and I'm following the discussion but still thinking it through. I'm sure a lot of people are at this stage.

How does this imply I support any political party?

I am an out and out terf. You think that fits with labour? I could not vote for them. I also couldn’t vote Tory. Greens? Not a chance.

Anyone whose argument consists of you’re a party broadcast or whatever rubbish they come up with usually is at the level of a Labour supporter so yeh it’s likely.

Ah I see we’re operating on different definitions of logic and reason.

@EndIessTea

I think some of you have no idea what would happen to a teacher who did out right refuse to use pronouns or name. There's conflicting advice everywhere. Even this thread can't agree.

It’s plain to see. You call me a ‘party broadcast’ and I’d say you’re a Labour loyalist

Whatever

The left are tied to gender ideology, anyone who wants to ignore that is likely voting for it anyway.

What, in your experience, would happen?

Hmm I’ve been discussing and challenging the trans movement and standing up for women’s rights on this forum for well over a decade Marsha and met many fellow mn’ers at conferences that tras tried to shut down. Hardly ignoring it or only getting interested when it becomes a party politics issue.

Well don’t start on me then with the party broadcast line

Leave the snide comments out of it. What is wrong with you?

There are loads of women on here that make good arguments and I prefer their take without the petty shite.

And there are people who jump on bandwagons just to promote their political or financial interests.

This is a cross party issue. Where we’re having successes is where women from different political and cultural and socio economic backgrounds are coming together to campaign and protest and focusing on their rights as women not being divided by male dominated party politics in which no one prioritises women.

Telling a woman who has been tackling this issue for 13 years that she doesn’t care or ignores it is inaccurate. Generally if you tell falsehoods or slander someone and become aware of it it’s mature and reasonable to apologise or at least acknowledge your mistake. Not double down on attacking them.

Who do you mean with this?

And there are people who jump on bandwagons just to promote their political or financial interests.

If you mean me, then just move on with the petty grudge.

I’ve been on this board for ages appreciating the efforts from many women. It’s something I care deeply about and would protest / vote for.

This thread feels weirdly similar to the Covid ones I wonder why that is, that petty personal approach that I haven’t had to put up with for ages. it has been so nice not have to interact with some…

Marsha's a regular poster.

One of the reasons I prefer this board to the politics one is that people with different party allegiances have cordial conversations. But as a Labour voter, up to and including 2019 (and I've not quite given up on them for 2024) I have to say that any personal attacks I've had have almost entirely come from left of centre voters.

Thanks Flo

It’s an odd thread as it’s included personal snide remarks, I’d say we’re mostly used to each other on FWR and trust that we’re coming from a pro women place regardless of other differences

Irritating to see some of the old tactics from some though.

Every teacher should have read or had training on KCSIE. The bit on emotional abuse includes this:

"It may involve conveying to a child that they are worthless or unloved, inadequate, or valued only insofar as they meet the needs of another person. It may include not giving the child opportunities to express their views, deliberately silencing them or ‘making fun’ of what they say or how they communicate. It may feature age or developmentally inappropriate expectations being imposed on children. "

I think expecting most children, but particularly SEND and non-native English speaking children to use third person pronouns as individualistic things rather than class based (which is the norm) is developmentally inappropriate and difficult. I think deliberately silencing GC children and their use of sex based pronouns (i.e. normal English usage) fits this description too. Their needs are also not being considered if only a few get individual pronouns - they're being valued only insofar as they meet the needs of others more fortunate/ special. To be fair every single child should get to choose their pronouns. Good luck teaching in that environment.

Protected characteristics must be balanced. The entire school isn't adjusted to the needs of one or two or 5 or 10 children with other protected characteristics. Disability, religion and sex are also protected characteristics all of which will be affected by wrong sex pronouns in different ways. Where's the balance?

For children transed by school - particularly without parents knowledge - who go on to puberty blockers and cross sex hormones and surgery, and then discover it's not the solution and regret their bodily changes, what's the excuse going to be from the teachers? Because using 'preferred' pronouns is just so clearly biased and coming down on one side of the debate it's beyond belief. And there is a middle ground, which is just to avoid third person pronouns altogether for any gender questioning students.

This and the name thing is a distraction. Lots of kids go by nicknames that aren't their legal names. Names (which are individual anyway) are fundamentally different to pronouns (normal usage is sex class based) and conflating them is a straw man argument.

I can't think of a single other example where the wants of one child are prioritised over the needs of all the other children in the school. And yet, with trans, this is happening in many schools. There's really no excuse.

Not using third person pronouns and using names is possible for teachers. That balances the needs of all the kids far better (although not really perfect as it's not correct and normal English usage).

But not all schools are captured. Not my DD's school, which still has single sex toilets and does not enforce pronoun usage. To my knowledge teachers don't use preferred pronouns either and they seem to manage. There are a few trans kids who are catered for with third spaces and pastoral support.

I bet in the schools where the teachers roll over on pronoun usage and compel the other children there are more trans kids too (I'd love to see some research on this), because there will be many children who'll like a situation where they can hold responsible adults hostage and boss them around and force their peers to do things against their will. Because, you know, they're kids. Not known for being able to make adult decisions which is why they can't live independently, drink, drive and work (etc).

I really can't wait for the lawsuits for the schools that are breaking the law (not providing single sex toilets is breaking the law). Too many children are being harmed and the psychological damage done to an entire cohort of children has not even been considered.

To my knowledge no one at my school has openly refused. I'm probably one of those that has come closest using phrases like the ones @swallowedAfly suggested. I know of others in the staffroom who don't agree.

We've never had a student transition without parental support. All transitions bar one, have been from female to male. The changed pronoun students are a very small number. They still abide by sex based provision for toilets and changing (or third space).

I'm also not sure "the whole school" is affected by one student changing pronouns.

Who gets to decide what's a female or a male name? Is Nick male or female? What about Vivien? Names are not actually associated with anything other than sex role stereotypes - some names have been traditionally male in the past and now most usually female and vice versa - whereas third person pronouns are a result of external observation of sex (which is a material reality and totally obvious for 99.999% of people).

Generally speaking, people get to decide what they're called. Many children choose nicknames that aren't their legal name. Many have family nicknames etc.

I think calling the child by a name and hiding it from the parents is clearly wrong as is changing legal name on documentation but names are not signing up to a specific ideology in the same way. There are two types of third person pronouns - two, associated with the two sex classes in humans (and indeed all mammals).