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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Is this acceptable in a school?

288 replies

noblegiraffe · 27/06/2010 14:48

A friend of mine is a teacher in an all boys school. He was showing a group of pupils some of the football and was fast-forwarding to get to the action. The camera lingered on some pretty girls in the crowd (you know the ones they normally pick!) and the pupils demanded that he go back so they could get a proper look. He obliged, but commented that if there had been a single girl in the classroom, he wouldn't have.

Obviously this was a pretty minor incident, but do you think it was fine (and if so, would it have also been fine if there had been girls present?), or is it encouraging the sexual objectification of women? Or anything else?

What are your thoughts?

OP posts:
Imperator · 27/06/2010 20:05

RE: HerBeatitude
Sorry, but your last post suggests you were in the room. I had no idea you were there.

Not only have you deigned to read my mind, but you now seem to tell me what happened.

TheFallenMadonna · 27/06/2010 20:06

You were watching football. Not an unreasonable question.

You hadn't answered my question from earlier in the thread...

sethstarkaddersmum · 27/06/2010 20:07

Imperator - you are incredibly rude, as well as arguing very badly indeed.

I said this was the kind of thing a middle aged perv would say. It is. I did not insinuate that you were a middle aged perv. You may be in your 20s - actually I am hoping this is the excuse for your obvious cluelessness. I was trying to help you to see why your phrasing comes across so badly. But you're being so terribly terribly defensive, you're obviously not in the frame of mind to listen sensibly to anything helpful.

(ROFL @ you saying to HerBeatitude 'Please don't put thoughts into my head that I have not expressed. You are judging me by your own prejudices.' - pot/kettle/black anyone?)

You obviously didn't read my post properly (and you're a teacher? God help us!) because you make great play of informing me that it is normal for boys to look at women and accuse me of being naive about human nature, when I actually stated explicitly that it is normal.

Go and read some feminism, I can't be bothered with arguments at this level - I know full well that some women like to be looked at blah blah blah. When men start calling women 'shrill' for arguing with them it is always a dead giveaway that they know nothing about the issues around feminism and aren't interested in learning.

HerBeatitude · 27/06/2010 20:07

So did you discuss other aspects of the girls apart from their appearance?

Imperator · 27/06/2010 20:07

re: TheFallenMadonn
Yes, we were watching football. So what?

ImSoNotTelling · 27/06/2010 20:10

No. How old were the girls being ogled.

Your last post says it all TBH. Like it or lump it, male heterosexual culture is the dominant culture, and if you don't like it you can fuck off.

This argument is used for everything

  • Page 3
  • Covers of nuts zoo etc at child eye-level
  • Men openly gawping at women as they try to go about their daily business
  • Men touching, groping, shouting at women as they try to go about their daily business

The list goes on.

Lot's of women don't like this stuff, they don't like the way the cameras zoom in on a young woman in a low cut top at wimbledon etc. They don't like being ogled and shouted at and felt up and worse as they go around the place.

The answer, is always, well we (men) like it, so shut up and stop making a fuss. You'll "get over it".

Well guess what, lots of women don't "get over it" and why should they even have to in the first place.

The sort of low level sexist activity that you have condoned in theclassroom is at one end of a spectrum, at the other end are terrible abuses, and in the middle are a range of harrassments that ordinary women have to endure from the day they hit puberty until the day that they are deemed "past it".

What you did was wrong. Simple as that. A throw-away sexist incident which will have confirmed in these boys minds just a little more, their right to treat women in a certian way.

Well done you.

Imperator · 27/06/2010 20:10

re: sethstarkaddersmum

Seeing as you can't be bothered, I won't reply to your latest nonsense. but for what it is worth, the first time I saw the word 'shrill' used in debate, it was by a woman describing a man.

The fact is, I probably do know more about feminist theory than you, but it doesn't matter, because you can't be bothered.

MarthaLovesMatthew · 27/06/2010 20:11

Imperator

Hope no one minds me jumping in here...

Why did you feel the need to tell your friend about this 'minor incident'?

In my own small opinion, watching the football and noticing a few attractive girls is one thing. Re-winding the tape with the sole purpose of "appreciating" them is another.

And I don't buy the whole "this is human nature so get over it" angle. Sounds a little too familiar to the old 'men can't help themselves when it comes to a pretty girl' kind of thing.

You're a grown man. They are young impressionable boys. You shouldn't have done it.

Prolesworth · 27/06/2010 20:11

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

Imperator · 27/06/2010 20:11

re: HerBeatitud
"So did you discuss other aspects of the girls apart from their appearance?"

No, but nor did I discuss their appearance. I didn't discuss them at all.

Prolesworth · 27/06/2010 20:12

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

sethstarkaddersmum · 27/06/2010 20:13

I am still reading the thread because it's making me laugh now - I love the way you think you know so much about feminism despite the spectacular ignorance displayed in your posts. Go on then, tell us something you know (no Googling, mind.)

TheFallenMadonna · 27/06/2010 20:13

You remember clearly the circumstances under which you first saw "shrill" used in debate?

Imperator · 27/06/2010 20:16

re: ImSoNotTelling
The problem with your post is that because my argument has been used to justify other acts, that my act is as bad as those acts. Can you not see how that is a weak argument?

These women were not groped, they were not belittled, we did not discuss them. They were looked at, that is all. They had clothes on, and they had volunteered to be filmed by the BBC for an introductory voxpox on football.

I think, to be honest, that many people here are making assumptions about what happened, as opposed to finding out what happened.

sethstarkaddersmum · 27/06/2010 20:16
Imperator · 27/06/2010 20:17

RE: TheFallenMadon
Yes, I do. Have you a problem with that?

Prolesworth · 27/06/2010 20:18

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

TheFallenMadonna · 27/06/2010 20:18

Well, I am sceptical. Unless you don't debate much.

Imperator · 27/06/2010 20:19

Re:sethstarkaddersmum
Tell me one thing I have said that displays an ignorance of feminism. You do realise that not all feminists claim that men looking at women is wrong...or did you not know that?

ImSoNotTelling · 27/06/2010 20:20

Let's just have this again shall we.

"Gay people have to et used to living in a largely heterosexual culture. If they are uncomfortable in this situation, they'll get over it."

Fabulous, you're obviously a real caring kind of guy.

Anyhoo.

You genuinely believe that all actions exist in a vacuum, that there is no way that what you did will have confirmed any ideas in impressionable young minds about what women are for? Good luck with that.

sethstarkaddersmum · 27/06/2010 20:20

Imp - how do you know that wasn't the first time you noticed 'shrill' being used, and actually it had been used lots of times by men of women but you hadn't noticed because that's normal? I would probably notice too if I heard a woman say it of a man, but I'm unlikely to remember you using it today because it was so terribly dull and typical.

sethstarkaddersmum · 27/06/2010 20:22

"Tell me one thing I have said that displays an ignorance of feminism."

erm.... you not getting the issues around the word 'shrill'?

now please do tell me which feminists you have read cos I'm dying to know.

OrientCalf · 27/06/2010 20:22

deeply unprofessional

and the 'it was on BBC1' argument doesn't wash either - just because sports cameramen like to objectify women doesn't mean that it is acceptable for a teacher to reinforce that

Imperator · 27/06/2010 20:23

Re: Prolesworth
"Well go on then, tell us exactly what happened imperator, I'm all ears.

"

What's the meaning of the bahhhhh? Hardly an adult's way of putting a question, is it?

I have provided the details that matter. The women were not belittled, they were not intimidated, they wore clothes, and consented to be viewed. No one discussed them, and no one made any comments at all about them. They asked me to rewind it, and I did. The boys laughed, that is all. It was harmless fun. I know this because no harm was caused.

Now, will someone make a case for harm that does not involve pretending that what i did was akin to showing them a porn flick, or overt racism?

No, I thought not.

ImSoNotTelling · 27/06/2010 20:24

There is a difference between a man looking at a woman (in a non-lecherous manner), or a woman looking at a man in the same way.

And a grown man in a teaching role, bowing to the catcalls and protestations of his male teenage students, and rewinding and replaying a section of a television program, on the basis that said young men thought that the young women were hot. With teacher encouraging them in their ogling and (as far as i can see) joining in. Which is why I asked how old the girls were.