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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Is this acceptable in a school?

288 replies

noblegiraffe · 27/06/2010 14:48

A friend of mine is a teacher in an all boys school. He was showing a group of pupils some of the football and was fast-forwarding to get to the action. The camera lingered on some pretty girls in the crowd (you know the ones they normally pick!) and the pupils demanded that he go back so they could get a proper look. He obliged, but commented that if there had been a single girl in the classroom, he wouldn't have.

Obviously this was a pretty minor incident, but do you think it was fine (and if so, would it have also been fine if there had been girls present?), or is it encouraging the sexual objectification of women? Or anything else?

What are your thoughts?

OP posts:
TheFallenMadonna · 27/06/2010 19:06

Oh blimey at "shrill bleating".

Are you a PE teacher?

ImSoNotTelling · 27/06/2010 19:15

Some of the students in your class may be gay. They may well have been uncomfortable with this particular type of "male bonding" in the classroom.

I find it strange that this kind of "laddy" shite is being encouraged in that setting TBH.

HerBeatitude · 27/06/2010 19:22

I'm guessing anything a female says that you disagree with is "shrill bleating" imperator.

Nice to know that such sexist attitudes are bbeing role modelled to the next generation of men.

SweetDreamerGirl · 27/06/2010 19:32

Imperator wrote "No one was hurt, no one was intimidated or belittled. What was intrinsically wrong with what I did? If you can't make a case for that, you have no case...
I think some of you need to get a grip. It was harmless fun"

So that is "your case", is it?

You just don't get it... .

Actually, there are quite a few reasons for the prevailing feminist response to this event ("our case"). Perhaps you should read some of the 200+ other theads in the Feminism section - I believe they will give you many reasons and detailed arguments as to why quite a few feminists on this message board see this event differently from you.

Imperator · 27/06/2010 19:39

Re:sethstarkaddersmum
I'm sorry, but your post is nonsense. You castigate me for my action, yet you insinuate that I am a "middle aged perv" because I, as all men do, appreciate attractive women. You seem to be incredibly naive about human nature, as well as being capable of your own seedy little prejudices. It is not "perverted" to look at members of the opposite sex and asses them for physical attractiveness. By definition, that is normal.

Your other argument seems to be based on the idea that what you consider desirable is what is desirable.

Well, I've got news for you, as you seem ignorant of this, but many women/girls actually want to be looked at by men/boys (delete as appropriate). Try as you might, you won't stop it from happening, as it is central to human sexuality. Indeed, the reverse is true too. Women/girls like to look at men/boys. Your problem is in assuming that those doing the looking take no other consideration into account when assessing the attractiveness of the people they are looking at. That is an insult, frankly. I can appreciate women purely for their looks, and when i get to know them I appreciate them for their character, and most men do the same. As do women for that matter.

I suggest you take some time to learn a little more about human nature.

Imperator · 27/06/2010 19:40

Re: sethstarkaddersmum

Yes, that is my case. Perhaps you would care to explain how it is not harmless?

HerBeatitude · 27/06/2010 19:40

"No one was hurt, no one was intimidated or belittled. What was intrinsically wrong with what I did?"

Let's imagine it's a scenario where everyone in the room is white, and they're allowed to laugh at black people being portrayed as stupid, or criminal. There isn't one black person in the room, so no one would be hurt, intimidated or belittled.

Still see nothing intrinsically wrong with what you did imperator?

Imperator · 27/06/2010 19:41

RE: TheFallenMadonna
"Are you a PE teacher?"

Do you not see the irony in complaining about my implied prejudice by employing your own?

Imperator · 27/06/2010 19:44

Re:ImSoNotTelling
"Some of the students in your class may be gay. They may well have been uncomfortable with this particular type of "male bonding" in the classroom."

I am sure some of them are...but I fail to see why it would make them uncomfortable. There is, after all, nothing wrong with being gay, so they won't care one way or the other, will they?

HerBeatitude · 27/06/2010 19:46

Why it is not harmless:

Because boys are being brought up in a porn culture where the objectification of women is if anything, worse than it was 30 years ago. Most boys think most rape allegations are false. Most boys see porn before they have any sexual relationship with a girl. They are already growing up with mysogynist messages about women being there for their use, they don't need those messages re-inforced by their educators.

Imperator · 27/06/2010 19:46

Re: HerBeatitude
"Let's imagine it's a scenario where everyone in the room is white, and they're allowed to laugh at black people being portrayed as stupid, or criminal. There isn't one black person in the room, so no one would be hurt, intimidated or belittled.

Still see nothing intrinsically wrong with what you did imperator?"

Before I answer this, are you suggesting that looking at attractive women on TV is the same as out right racism? Really?

I trust that I don't need to respond to 'parallels' that are...well..not parallels.

HerBeatitude · 27/06/2010 19:48

"Looking" - you mean reducing women solely to their physical appearance?

HerBeatitude · 27/06/2010 19:49

I love the way sexists never want to see a parallel between racism and sexism.

Imperator · 27/06/2010 19:50

re: HerBeatitude
No, I don't. Please don't put thoughts into my head that I have not expressed. You are judging me by your own prejudices.

Thank you.

chibi · 27/06/2010 19:51

I could say that yes women/girls do mostly want 'attention' but this is the attention of a particular person

it is unlikely that those girls were full of joyful anticipation that some teacher and his class would be letching over them, even rewinding their images to get a really good look

there really isn't a place for that in a classroom, I say this as a teacher myself

I don't think I have ever encountered a scenario where I felt compelled to share my appreciation of someone's attractiveness with a class, and I have been teaching 10 years now

CantSupinate · 27/06/2010 19:52

I wouldn't have a problem with what happened in OP . I don't understand how a lingering camera moment is belittling.
Would it be belittling if the camera lingered over some cute little children playing in the mud, and a bunch of broody mamas asked to see that again?

Imperator · 27/06/2010 19:53

re: HerBeatitude.
I do see the parallel between sexism and racism, per se.

I just don't see how you have made a case for the idea that when a man looks at a woman it is the same as thinking all black people are stupid and criminal. How is it? Explain.

Your argument is weak and the fact that you refer to me as a sexist on the basis that I look at women means that you don't actually understand what sexist means. I suspect, to be honest, that I know more about feminism than you do, as you seem woefully ignorant if it.

HerBeatitude · 27/06/2010 19:54

Oh, so you had a conversation with the boys about these girls aspirations, dreams, hopes, personalities, intellectual capabilities as well did you?

Only I thought you'd just ogled them, silly me - sorry, i was being prejudiced, I had no idea you had encouraged the boys in your class to see the girls as full, rounded human beings.

ImSoNotTelling · 27/06/2010 19:55

Hmmm interesting.

You are certain that gay boys would not be uncomfortable with being in a room with a group of boys and men ogling girls

As it is only natural and something that we all do and nothing to get worked up about

Yet you would not have done it if there was a girl in the room

That doesn't make sense. Either it's fine and natural and why should anyone mind, or it isn't.

I would say that a male teacher joining in ogling girls (how old?) with a gang of teenage boys is pretty creepy actually.

Imperator · 27/06/2010 19:56

re: HerBeatitude.

"Because boys are being brought up in a porn culture where the objectification of women is if anything, worse than it was 30 years ago. Most boys think most rape allegations are false. Most boys see porn before they have any sexual relationship with a girl. They are already growing up with mysogynist messages about women being there for their use, they don't need those messages re-inforced by their educators."

Sorry, but you are going to have to explain why looking at women is reinforcing a "porn culture". Need I remind you that this was BBC1 and these women had clothes on? I think you are not making a good case for not being shrill here.

Imperator · 27/06/2010 19:59

Re:HerBeatitude
Sorry, but you have still not explained why it is the same as racism. Why is looking at a girl and thinking, she is pretty, the same as thinking of a black person, he is a stupid criminal because he is black?

Come on, it's your parallel, explain it.

ImSoNotTelling · 27/06/2010 20:00

An adult male encouraging teenage boys to ogle girls in the classroom is inappropriate.

Teenage boys do not need any encouragement in that department, they certainly do not need to have it confirmed by an authority / role model figure that leching over women is a great past-time for a man.

I can see however that you are just here for an argument. That's fine.

Feel free to continue leering away with your charges. No-ones going to try and stop you.

HerBeatitude · 27/06/2010 20:01

But you didn't just look did you.

You rewound the camera to get a better look - whcih is pandering to your class's wish to reduce the girls to their appearance.

Imperator · 27/06/2010 20:01

RE: ImSoNotTelling
Gay people have to et used to living in a largely heterosexual culture. If they are uncomfortable in this situation, they'll get over it.

I have explained my position regarding women who might have been present, I see no reason to repeat it.

What difference does my age make?

HerBeatitude · 27/06/2010 20:04

But you didn't just look at a girl and think she's pretty.

You fell in with your class's desire to objectify women. You're an educator, you should be leading by example, not getting down with the kids and going along with the mysogynist messages their heads are being stuffed with by the media.

Do you understand that reducing women to what they look like is sexism?

That's where the parallel is. I know the education industry doesn't believe it, but I think sexism and racism are morally equivalent.