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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Recommend me a book!

1001 replies

RibenaBerry · 24/06/2010 13:11

Right, reading these boards recently has given me a bit of a kick up the arse on my feminist principles. I've done a bit of 'light' reading in the area (think The Beauty Myth as a teenager) but think I need something a bit more serious without being so weighty I never pick it up. I'd rather have something published in, say, the last 15 years than any of the 'classics'.

Any ideas?

OP posts:
earwicga · 10/07/2010 00:49

'Algerian transsexual's memoirs reveal life of discrimination'

edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/07/09/randa.algeria.transsexual.lebanon/?fbid=HSik1lLKHsm

Have a nice weekend y'all

MillyR · 10/07/2010 02:06

I don't understand this concept that a woman can't be sexist to another woman. Where has anybody on this thread said that is the case?

sparky159 · 10/07/2010 02:16

dittany-
im not struggling at all!
in fact-being the illetarate bastard that i am-i think im doing well!(in life)
-despite having hardly educasion-
i can see further from this crap-please stop attacking me!
yes-i dont understand the long words-
but i also know that some hide belong long words-
actually-i think we both are coming across as angry-this is a good front-but i think we are both probebly hurt!
talk about it dittany-and ill talk about it aswell!
ive not come here for a fight-i really havent!

frikonastick · 10/07/2010 05:55

sorry, i am on a different time zone so missed all this last night.

dittany,

im sorry that in the course of this thread you have felt unsupported but please believe that is not the case. amongst the regular posters in this section, irrespective if we always agree with you or not, you are much respected. and thats because you consistently go into battle DESPITE the sort of vitriol hurled your way. and i suspect that you have gotten so good at defending yourself that many posters dont feel the need to do it for you. and we are wrong.

SelaciousCrumb · 10/07/2010 06:51

I think it was Milly R that mentioned space invasion, sorry I?ve read the rest of the thread before coming back to type this .

If any f you feel as though I am one, all you have to do is send me a message and ask me to leave and I will, please don?t be rude when you do it though

SelaciousCrumb · 10/07/2010 07:28

Someone made the assumption that transwomen try to be feminine, please don't make sweeping statements like that and don't force your way of looking at the trans idenitity onto someone else, you have No right.

I've already stated i'm in transition and if you mean that i'm going to shun my typically male skill set, you are joking. You don't have to be feminine to be a woman, and i think that your assertion that it does is an insult to masculine women.

The word 'trying' is a bad word to use, because now you've admitted something is an effort. Why should it be an effort, i think thats why a lot of trans people find it so difficult actually, because they are trying but they are focusing on the superficial things.

Partly i have found within the gender identity clinc treatment path transwomen are strongly encouraged to wear 'typically female clothing, I'm a couple of years in , i'm androgenous looking which is great ,i'm happy with that, but they still have me down as presenting as male. The gender clinic itself requires gender conformity and because i refuse to and i've given my reasons to them in writing..... blah blah blah

chibi · 10/07/2010 07:32

don't force your way of looking at the trans idenitity onto someone else, you have No right.

arf

and yet trans people have the right to decide what woman and what female is - aspparently just a state of mind

so is trans then

thus i have as much right to define it as anyone else - just because i was born with female sex chromosomes and sex organs and have lived/been socialised as a woman doesn't mean i can't know trans issues - i 'feel' i do so it must be true

chibi · 10/07/2010 07:35

in fact, since i feel it to be true, i must be a greater authority than you on trans issues, and my word should carry greater weight

if you don't like it you are guilty of a hate crime and are transphobic

Blackduck · 10/07/2010 08:07

God I can't believe some of the things on this thread. chibi - good posts....
There just seems a load of people trying to gain the moral high ground and their treatment of others in that has been vile.
frikonastick - spot on re Dittany.
I didn't see the worst of it last night, but I would have reported it....

ISNTitFUNtoBEinDISGUISE · 10/07/2010 08:20

selacious I have enjoyed your posts, I think they have added to this conversation. It is not your comments or those of some of the other people who have come to join this conversation that I personally have difficulties with

Dittany yes I did report, and ditto what frik said about that as well. I think sometimes others imagine that all of this stuff is water off a ducks back to you, we are so used to reading it. I also think that the clarity of your viewpoint and yuor ability to express it without being sidetracked is vital to this section - I am sure that reading your posts is what led a lot of women here to become more active in their feminist ideas/get angry about things - and that is so important. Even though I don't always agree with what you say eitehr

ISNTitFUNtoBEinDISGUISE · 10/07/2010 08:35

selacious I can see what you're saying re narrow gender constraints but in using a phrase like "masculine woman" you are buying into these stereotypes yourself.

Personally I am very very against the idea that "men are like this and women are like that" and that frees everyone up to be who they want to be and do what they want to do and personally I am pleased if the sum of human happiness is higher by a person feeing free to express themselves as they feel they wish.

There are a lot of issues around this, and I can realate to sakura's view quite easily that if men can be women without any of the things that make us biologically female, and without the experience of growing up as a female, then what actually is a woman. People say being a woman is a state of mind. I don't go around feeling like a woman" all the time. I don't think about it that much. I think about otehr women, I think about the children, I think about the environment, all sorts of things. But I don't go around thinking "I am woman". Does this mean that I am not one?

I am also confused as to how someone can know that they "think like a woman" when they don't know what a woman thinks like. I totally accept that some people want to be the other gender, and that is fine. I admit that I fail to understand how people know what the other gender actually thinks like though. I know that I think very differently to a lot of other women, from conversation. Is it from conversation with men and women, that it is possible to say that you are more one than the other? But then what of people who enjoy the company of the other sex and don't really get on with their own sex? I don;t really understand that - and I probably never will as I have not experienced it. Still I accept that people feel like that, and that is fine.

I still feel that the root of what is going on (again as sakura said) is that society is too gendered by far and thus people feel they have to conform to certain ways of being, there is not freedom to be anything else. If we were all totally free and there were no sexism, things would be very different for everyone, and I thnk that is teh society that I would aim for.

And what I said earlier "I am (in many ways) very stereotypically male in my outlook and the things I like and so on. It doens't mean I am a man. In our society I have no desire to be a man. If I lived in a society where women were forced into extremely proscribed gender roles and I was not allowed to follow my interests then maybe I would consider myself to have a "male brain" and wish I were a man. Certainly in previous centuries girls passed off as men in order to do the things they wanted, which as women they were not able to do. It has been mentioned that this still happens in Iran. If the woman mechanic who was described earlier lived in the UK rather than Iran, it is perfectly possible that she might not feel the need to live as a man, as she would be able to be "herself" as a woman."

Is there a point in that, do you think, or is that an idea that a trans person would totally reject?

ISNTitFUNtoBEinDISGUISE · 10/07/2010 08:56

I think i have a real problem with people saying that they have a "male brain" or a "female brain" as this to me is an inherently sexist thing to say. But that seems to be the argument as to what makes a woman a woman, and nothing else. So I can't agree with it, can I. As to agree with it is to throw out a fundamental part of my beliefs ie that proscribed gender rules and the insistence that "men are like this and women are like that" is an extremely damaging thing.

vesuvia · 10/07/2010 09:36

When discussing endocrinology (the science of hormones), please bear in mind that it is a science. Science is about uncertainty. It is the best-fit explanation of current evidence. If the evidence changes, scientists change their theory. Endocrinology is a science based on evidence from experiments in lab animals and clinical trials in humans. Clinical trials for any medical treatment can be thought of as experiments under a rigorous ethical framework. Endocrinologists and therefore doctors and psychologists do not know all the answers.

ISNTitFUNtoBEinDISGUISE · 10/07/2010 09:53

I also agree with that vesuvia

See the growing evidence that hormonal contraceptives for women are not quite as fine and dandy and harmless as has been believed, and we have been using them since the 60s

Of course people must do as they feel is right under the guidance of doctors, but i agree that this is a very young treatment and the endocrine system is deeply complicated and thus describing it as experimental is not inappropriate. My MIL is having experimental treatment for her condition, it's not a new idea.

PLus what Dittany described as child abuse was a statement that parents had commenced hormone treatment on a 5yo (4yo?). Which is patently wrong and as people have pointed out would be illegal in the UK. Why that got her shouted at is beyond me TBH

dittany · 10/07/2010 10:08

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ISNTitFUNtoBEinDISGUISE · 10/07/2010 10:25

Morning dittany. Yes I think MNHQ were probably having a bit of a break rather than anything more sinister!

As for this topic

I am willing to accept that I have things to learn and to understand about transgender. It's not something that I have really tried to find out about so I am sure that some of my assumptions are iffy.

However the idea that someone who tries to question and understand more about what it is to be a woman, what makes a woman, gender roles in society, whether they have a part to play in people "feeling" that they are the other gender, or if there is something else going on, or maybe its different for different people, and then questioning whether someone who has not been raised as a female can fully comprehend teh experience of growing up as female and all that comes with that - the idea that someone who tries to explore those things is guilty of hate crimes is beyond me.

Like I said earlier, I think that the trans feminist cause has probably lost some of the goodwill of a lot of their natural supporters here today.

vesuvia · 10/07/2010 10:36

dittany, I think what might prevent some people commenting on this thread is fear of words like transphobia, hate crimes, report to the police. These may seem to some people like idle threats said in the heat of the moment in an internet forum that would be thrown out by any court but it appears that transphobia is a real crime and the risk of criminal prosecution and conviction for expressing transphobic views does exist out there in real life. If the threats are idle, they should not have been made.

LePapa · 10/07/2010 10:36

Dittany... "Oh god, another eight inches of drivel. Is the length of all these posts attempting to compensate for something?"
You cry about insults yet attempt to put me down by claiming I have a bad case of 'hung like a baby carrot syndrome'.... good to see you unveil what equality means for you.

"Only patriarchal men could believe that women are nothing more than men with a belief that they are women, and that their inverted penises are "neo-vaginas"....
The point is that the boundaries are not set as science advances. Your feminist standpoint stands akin to religions creationist theory. There are blurrings of the boundaries in ALL ANIMALS and as we are conscious humans our brains play the largest part of who we are.

"Trans have their place in society - they are protected in ways that women certainly aren't ...
No they aren't, nowhere near the rights women take for granted... and the misunderstanding and hate directed at them as well by male and female? Ignorance of their being as evidenced by your angry airbrushed sweeps of their human condition.

I'm off as there's more hypocrites here demanding equality but then dishing out diatribe. As Dittany et al say themselves, they are a small minority and reading their arguments it is clear that getting support for such standpoints will continue to be difficult. I'll pop back later and see what penis jokes have been aimed at me after this post...

vesuvia · 10/07/2010 10:46

LePapa, sex (anatomy)/gender (behaviour) boundaries have not been studied in all animals. Therefore, your claim that "There are blurrings of the boundaries in ALL ANIMALS" is not supported by evidence. It is your opinion, nothing more.

ISNTitFUNtoBEinDISGUISE · 10/07/2010 10:47

But this is bollocks lepapa

""Only patriarchal men could believe that women are nothing more than men with a belief that they are women, and that their inverted penises are "neo-vaginas"....
The point is that the boundaries are not set as science advances. Your feminist standpoint stands akin to religions creationist theory. There are blurrings of the boundaries in ALL ANIMALS and as we are conscious humans our brains play the largest part of who we are."

NO the POINT IS that someone who was born male and raised as a man in our society cannot truly comprehend what it is like to grow up as a female in our society. THAT is what everyone has been getting so aerated about. I am perfectly happy for people to live in whatever gender role makes them happy, to take hormones and have surgery (although i would prefer that we were in a society where these things might be seen as less necessary etc). I am perfectly happy for these to be legally women adn to live lives as women. What I am NOT happy about is that these people then try to tell me that my experinece of growing up as a female is IRRELEVANT, that the things that are important to me are not important, that questioning whether someone who has been raised as a male can understand what it is like to be raised as a female is a HAT CRIME, and being told what I may or many not read and what aspects of feminism I may support or not.

That is an absolute pile of SHITE and has made a lot of people very angry. What is the point in trans feminists alienating tracts of people who would naturally support them? Why so aggressive? Wht this insistence that one viewpoint is right even if it casually wipes out the lives and expereinces of every otehr woman on the planet? What of all that? As far as I can see the trans feminists don't care about all of that, they don't care about non trans women, they only care about themselves. I care about women in different countries, I try to help them, even though helping them will nto improve my lot. But I do it because I care. This idea appears to be completely lost of come of the contributors to this thread.

ISNTitFUNtoBEinDISGUISE · 10/07/2010 10:49

In fact reading it again it is total bollocks.

"our brains play the largest part of who we are."

No they don't. They demonstrably don't. Our external physical appearance and sexual attributes play the biggest part in who we are, because we live in a deeply gendered and sexist society.

This idea that men and women have "different brains" is anathema to me, and deeply and fundamentally sexist.

dittany · 10/07/2010 10:52

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ISNTitFUNtoBEinDISGUISE · 10/07/2010 10:57

HAT CRIME

whoops

dittany · 10/07/2010 10:58

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ISNTitFUNtoBEinDISGUISE · 10/07/2010 11:07

I can understand that trans people have had difficult experiences growing up, that it is a hard thing to be, that they face specific and widespread discimination and generally have a very bad time.

I see no reason that trans people shouldn't campiagn for more and better rights, and to raise awareness, and to fight against bullying and discriminatory behaviour. All of that is fine.

But this specific approach of transfeminists as shown on this thread leaves me at a loss. I fight for the improvement of the lot of all women, including trans women. The other feminist sub-groups mentioned earlier have in common a desire to improve the lot for all women, with a specific focus on groups where there are other risk factors. That does not seem to be the approach of the trans feminists - it seems to be a struggle for the improvement of things for trans feminists and no thought for other women, or for any situations that do not affect them directly. I find that a bit depressing. It quite clearly says "you must help me, I will not help you". That is a terrible approach IMO. And I still don't understand this disconnect between "I am a woman" and "I only care about trans feminist issues, as I am a trans woman". Those two positions do not marry up for me at all.

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