Recommend me a book!

[RibenaBerry]

Right, reading these boards recently has given me a bit of a kick up the arse on my feminist principles. I've done a bit of 'light' reading in the area (think The Beauty Myth as a teenager) but think I need something a bit more serious without being so weighty I never pick it up. I'd rather have something published in, say, the last 15 years than any of the 'classics'.

Any ideas?

People are going to come and start shouting again in a minute aren;t they.

I might leave this soon I think I have said what I wanted to say.

I am absolutely sure that many trans women would be shocked to see the way they have been represented on this thread.

The amount of energy expended on this discussion is proof of how much we are expected to give to the trans women.

Rather than talking about fighting patriarchy and making the lot of women better, we've been suckered into running circles while being insulted and threatened and patronised.

Quote from wastingaway - "Rather than talking about fighting patriarchy and making the lot of women better, we've been suckered into running circles while being insulted and threatened and patronised."

I agree. The patriarchy has got off too lightly in all of this. They benefit from the classic patriarchy anti-feminist tactic of divide and rule.

This thread has been very instructive for that reason (as well as others).

Everyone reading this thread will now know more about trans issues and how some feminists see them. That is a good thing.

ditanny - Accusations of transphobia against you may have been removed from the thread, but several such accusations against other contributors have not been removed.

All I'm saying is that I searched for transphobic in the thread and found the word linked with accusations against posters. That's all.

ditanny, as I'm not a lawyer, I am hazy on any differences between transphobia and transphobic comments. I was referring to your post at 11:45 "The "transphobic" posts got removed pretty quickly". I don't mean to confuse you.

oops I mean dittany of course

Dittany,

It has taken me what feels like years to get to this point on this thread. I feel like I've been through the ringer myself and I haven't even been posting - let alone been attacked in the way that you have been.

As usual, you have given me a new perspective on an issue. I find your wisdom and your compelling (and measured - not personal or unpleasant)voice persuasive and thought-provoking.

For those who have come onto mumsnet purely to argue on this thread you are doing yourself and your cause no favours by attacking Dittany in this way. Although many regulars on here disagree with much of what she says very few do not hold her in esteem for the way in which she presents her views. Certainly very few, if any, would approve of the way she has been personally attacked on this thread. You have expressed your point of view with a nastiness that she has not directed towards you (earwicga in particular).

On the issue itself, I would only repeat what has already been said by many on this thread. I can not see that someone can know that they are a woman without knowing what a woman is. I also don't see that feminists should be fighting for the rights of trans women. Trans women are recognised as a vulnerable group in need of protection and tolerance. Women are experiencing discrimination daily. Individually and collectively, but that is not recognised in the same way. Until it is we have very different struggles and very little in common. I have every sympathy for anyone experiencing a psychological problem with themselves whether that be body dysmorphia, anorexia or GID, but a psychological issue is not the same as a feminist issue and I will continue to be a feminist fighting solely for the cause of women who have experienced women's oppression from birth until that war is won.

I reported that 18:05 post of Earwicga's and am slightly amazed that it is still there.

Whoever said that people have been inhibited from posting because of the legal threats is absolutely right.

I've kept out of a lot of this because apparently it is illegal to say what I think.

Pity it's not illegal to say that all women are bitches, isn't it. But I somehow don't think the transgender people will be fighting for that statement to be be made illegal.

Pah.

BTW selaciouscrumb I just wanted to say that your posts have been interesting and respectful and have done a million times more good in terms of getting people to look at transgender issues than the patriarchal hectoring we're getting from other quarters.

I reported the post too and am pretty disgusted that mnhq have let it stand. Says alot really ..

The 18:05 comment looks to gone at last gone.

FWIW, this isn't something I've ever thought about before but I've found Sakura and dittany's arguements on this thread very convincing. The trans side (with a few exceptions) really haven't made their points well.

Selaciouscrumb, my earlier comments were not directed at you. I thought your points were well made and I agreed with some of them, but not others. I think you pointed out some areas where there was common ground.

Dittany, I do think there is some truth in that people don't defend you when you are personally attacked every time because you seem to be such a strong person. But it is of course wrong that you aren't defended by others. I do think that you being so unwavering in your opinions allows other people to feel that they can speak up on issues, because your presence means that the heat gets deflected elsewhere. While that is unpleasant for you, I do think such people are really valuable for feminism because it gives other women the courage to speak up. As I'm sure most of us know, being a vocal feminist is going to lead to a response of anger from many people, and doing the right thing rarely leads to someone winning a popularity contest.

MillyR, I think you've been pretty strong on this thread too. I think you too have put a different side of the argument with a passionate but measured voice.

I have always felt that minorities need to be respected and protected, so my knee-jerk reaction to this debate would originally have been to allow people to self-identify in any way they want to and to defend their right to do so. I think it is a real indication of how much work feminists still have to do that I hadn't even realised that my right to self-determine as an adult woman would be threatened by that.

Of course I am supportive of people who struggle with GID and firmly believe that society should support them with their journeys to find what they are looking for. I haven't changed my view on that, but I have thought a bit more deeply about what that means for our struggles as feminists and I thank you, MillyR and Sakura and Dittany for that.

lifeissweet-
yes-people have got the right to self determine what they are-and this is partly what ive been trying to say!
why do you feel youre right to define youreself as a adult female has been threatened?
incedently-i can actually see peoples arguments that transwomen havent had to go through some of the things that other women have-and i partly agree on this one-the reason why i only partly agree is-i can also see that transwomen go through things that other women dont-so although theyre not the same problems-both women and transwomen both have struggles and i cant see why this would make transwomen not women!
its been mentioned in one of the posts about a four/five year old and blockers[i think]-
im not aware of anywhere in the world that would give a child this young blockers-and if this was the case i would be horrified!
im wondering though if this may of got mixed up a bit[as i havent seen the article]as i believe that the blockers are also used in young children with precousous puberty!
Herbeatitude-im sure that there would be many transpeople who would campaign to have this awful statement made illegal!

dittony-
i can see what youre saying-and id agree that someof this would be a nonesensicle[oh cant spellit]-so would be a flight from reality!
but i dont feel like transsexuelism is a flight from fancy at all!
i would agree that nature depicts what sex we are-but i think that its not as simple as we are either born male or female!
i believe that nature makes transsexuel people be born aswell[or they wouldnt be transsexual]and if youre born into a body that doesnt feel right-then this is where the self defining comes into it-can you see what im saying?
i can say what youre saying about suit of clothes ect-and probably it might come across as like this to some-but it is far deeper than this!
dittony-if youre saying that the only reason a man can become a women is because of a social power to be able to and they cant be disagreed with-what about ftm then?