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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Recommend me a book!

1001 replies

RibenaBerry · 24/06/2010 13:11

Right, reading these boards recently has given me a bit of a kick up the arse on my feminist principles. I've done a bit of 'light' reading in the area (think The Beauty Myth as a teenager) but think I need something a bit more serious without being so weighty I never pick it up. I'd rather have something published in, say, the last 15 years than any of the 'classics'.

Any ideas?

OP posts:
ISNTitFUNtoBEinDISGUISE · 09/07/2010 22:20

fuck me sorry that's an essay!

that's what happens when you come to a thread like this late I guess

LePapa · 09/07/2010 22:22

"By dittany Fri 09-Jul-10 17:26:03
"If the law see them as women/female, who are these feminist to judge? Or are they above the law?"

Gee there's nothing like getting patriarchal insititutions like the law on your side to support another sexist misogynistic insititution like trans. Do you really think that feminists ought to have respect for patriachal law, which has done nothing for women, and has in many cases actively oppressed us? Such a weak argument.

I'd also like to point out that it's very culturally masculine for people to be making these long bombastic posts trying to teach women the error of our ways. The penis is still very much in evidence."

My God! "misogynistic insititution like trans"... Are trying to argue that trans is misogynitistically inspired? Are you also claiming that the patriarchal law courts are more discriminatory against 'women' rather than transwomen?... Because it too is created in the male image? Any sane advocate of the trans condition could find no words to argue with such alien paranoia! And then the prophetical dittany sums her brief verbal ejaculation with the put down - 'such a weak argument'... Quite.

Then the bit that confirms that she reads from the feminist only bible.. (mind you I must admit I understand the context of this forum as a feminist literature discussion corner)... the culturally Masculine Bombastic, Ain't He Fantastic sermon from the unholy representation of the phallus... namely that of the long pompous post... or imagine the Pompopotomus if man were a creature that woman had cast in his projected egotistical image! Long posts are nothing to do with teaching women the error of their ways... and as a man I am quite hurt by that... Can't you understand that it's in our make-up to ramble on! Can't you forgive us things like losing our keys... that we can't look for things properly because we evolved as hunter gatherers and when searching we scan... ... just in case something attacks... always alert! Forgive us these things and let me stand as an equal on this forum and afford me the respect that you demand of my kind... I'll try and keep the next one snappy... honest.

"The penis is still very much in evidence."... fair do's... I've no argument with you on that one. That's surely a positive we can build on as we seek to learn from each other...

Look, from what I can see, the argument is that some of you feel that a transwoman has no right to call herself a woman... and I guess that means cannot or should not be referred to in the female pronoun... eg. herself. You think that a transwomans demand for equality with other women muddy the waters around women getting equality with men... that it is a mysoginistic attempt to steal equality from woman by foisting on them some 'half-breed' women? ... ...Do you not understand how offensive this is? How damaging it is to have a group of people in society saying to you that because you have a biological difficulty, "you must be some attempt to undermine our hardcore feminist agenda"? You blame them for stirring up the waters as to deprive you of equality... and by doing so you condemn them to a status below human...
'Let them get their own rights, we're fighting here for ours, let man sort out his problem' is your cry it appears. Trans people in every culture have it rough, big time, and the shame of it is that even in the west where at least many women can live free happy lives, trans people are unable, due to ignorance and fear stirred up by people who refuse to look at them as human, but instead as a joke or a plot...

I suggest to you that it is not only you the hardcore feminist brigade that discriminate against transgendered people, but also the 'misogynistic' court system, religious groups, Daily Mail readers et al. I argue that it is you who are muddying the waters for the rights of transgendered people to gain the equalities that you as a woman can take for granted in the UK. Transgendered human beings don't need to ask your opinion on whether they can call themselves 'men' or 'women'... even when oppressed peoples are forbidden to be recognized, they still know what they are... you should know that...

Evolution of all species, including humans... or, if you'll forgive my masculine slip, 'man'... and the evolution of society has created a world for us. These people are now seeing that human beings can have freedoms and live as themselves, within a gender that they feel... that they are, as nuture defined... but is betrayed by their own body... There are male and female... but we are all a mix... there is a interactive exhibit apparently in the Science Museum in London called "What Sex Are You?" or something like that... I haven't tried it but from what i know, it demonstrates how male or female you are from questions... Science is telling us that we have these anomolies, as all life on the planet does, and that it is up to the person themselves to define where in society they want to stand... and be afforded those rights...

LePapa · 09/07/2010 22:25

I recommend ?Herland? by Charlotte Perkins Gilman as the book to read... just so i stay on topic-ish

dittany · 09/07/2010 22:29

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ISNTitFUNtoBEinDISGUISE · 09/07/2010 22:31

I thought the argument was that some women on here felt that trans feminists were being rather presumptious dictating what ideas of feminism were acceptable and which were not, when they had not actually had the day to day experience of sexism growing up as a female and shaping their entire viewpoint and life.

When it come to trans feminism, what are the most important issues, what are the things at the top of the list?

ISNTitFUNtoBEinDISGUISE · 09/07/2010 22:32

sorry dittany

sparky159 · 09/07/2010 22:35

yes-youre right Sally-you could ask a thousand people this question and you would get diffrent answers!
and actually-these answers would also be from transwomen also!
we could all talk about[what society]sees as what is women or men untill the cows come home-and get no where as there is no simple answer!
the human race is much too complicated for things to be this simple-only a lot of people cant see this!
i believe that there is a lot of people also somewhere in between [what society sees as]men and women-third gender!
society is so hell bent on fighting with each other-no one gets heard-and it just goes on and on and on-and people suffer!
and yet-we all say that we are fighting for rights-yet in this fight-we hurt each other-madness!we are all human beings no matter what!

ISNTitFUNtoBEinDISGUISE · 09/07/2010 22:35

"Only patriarchal men could believe that women are nothing more than men with a belief that they are women, and that their inverted penises are "neo-vaginas". "

That's the sort of thing I have been finding upsetting actually, a kind of dismissal of my entire life experience as a female as irrelevant to being a woman. Anyone can be a woman, it's a state of mind. No it isn't, it's something that you live, and it is different to being a male. It is, I'm sure, aso different to growing up a trans male or a trans female. Each has its own unique set of difficulties, some are more difficult than others. You can't just dismess peoples life experience like that. I would never say that as I am female I know what it feels like to be a trans female, as I never was a male wanting to be a female. It's rubbish. How are people even saying that it makes sense?

dittany · 09/07/2010 22:36

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ISNTitFUNtoBEinDISGUISE · 09/07/2010 22:39

I think this is what I really want to know

"When it come to trans feminism, what are the most important issues, what are the things at the top of the list? "

vesuvia · 09/07/2010 22:48

quote from ISNT - "When it come to trans feminism, what are the most important issues, what are the things at the top of the list? "

I found The Transfeminist Manifesto. Perhaps that might help clarify for you what transfeminism is hoping to achieve.

ISNTitFUNtoBEinDISGUISE · 09/07/2010 22:50

christ almighty it's 9 pages long! I have just spent 2 hours reading this thread

can you give me the top 3 or top 5 trans feminist aims? will have a look in the document for a summary as well

ISNTitFUNtoBEinDISGUISE · 09/07/2010 22:53

hmmm right

oh bollocks it won't let me cut n paste

sigh

dittany · 09/07/2010 23:00

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sally66 · 09/07/2010 23:06

dittany
This is basically an experiment on young people's bodies.
Was YOUR statement and yet you admit you no nothing about endocrinology. Oh dear, who would i trust? People who have studied the subject for many years or somebody who wants an arguement. So are you now accusing me and the endos as being abusers?

I have calmly tried to explain our childrens condition but i don't think you really want to know. It's like talking to a child in the playground with it's hands over it ears.

I feel sorry for you. Just because people can not be put into tidy boxes, you are missing out on some wonderful people with your small mindedness. You have my sympathy.

dittany · 09/07/2010 23:14

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ISNTitFUNtoBEinDISGUISE · 09/07/2010 23:16

I have also skimmed it and it does seem like a quite specific set of things. Things that are specific to trans women, i can't see anything for women in general.

I am happy to continue as I am, and the things that I am trying to change will hopefully make life better for everyone.

I don't see why I should drop the things that are important to me and turn my back on teh millions of women around the globe in order to help what is actually a very small group of people, albeit one which has a very difficult set of concerns.

The document itself is - it slags off mainstream feminism as being to do with middle class white lesbians (paraphrasing) but there is not one mention of women (trans or otherwise) in countries around the world where women are extremely oppressed. Nothing to do with the treatment of young women and girls around the globe. That sort of thing. The things that are important to me. Like, it mentioned how trans prostitutes have a really bad time of it. I'm sure they do. What about all the other prostitutes? if trans feminists don't give a monkeys about me why should I about them, frankly? Helping a woman have a fistula repaired in africa won't help me, but I do it, as I want to help women in general. The trans feminist manifesto does not seem to care about anyone except trans feminists. And then there is confusion as to why women don't want to chuck all of their causes out of the window to campaign for things which would be helped anyway by campaigning for their usual causes, but apparently this is not good enough

sparky159 · 09/07/2010 23:22

i dont think that this is about transwomen wanting anything from women at all!
who on earth has mentioned tranwomen wanting
shelters ect?
you sound extreemly paranoid!
as it goes though-transwomen are often the victims/survivers of male violence also-
[and female violence]- where do you think they should go then?

earwicga · 09/07/2010 23:25

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sally66 · 09/07/2010 23:26

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ISNTitFUNtoBEinDISGUISE · 09/07/2010 23:26

sparky dittany is referring to the transfeminist manifesto which vesuvia linked to a few posts up, which is also what my post is about.

ISNTitFUNtoBEinDISGUISE · 09/07/2010 23:27

i get the feeling that quite a few people are reacting rather than actually reading

i have to go to bed soon though

ISNTitFUNtoBEinDISGUISE · 09/07/2010 23:31

In fact am off to bed.

Night everyone.

dittany · 09/07/2010 23:34

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ISNTitFUNtoBEinDISGUISE · 09/07/2010 23:38

Oh just thought of what I meant to say earlier

re the transfeminist manifesto

on the one hand MTF trans are saying that they are women. full stop.

OK, that's fine.

on the other hand, the transfeminist manifesto quite clearly says that trans women have quite specific problems related to their trans status

Again I have no issue with that.

However those two positions do not tie in. Either trans women are exactly the same as other women, in which case why not join in with mainstream feminism and be done with it

Or trans women are not actually the same as other women and that is why a separate branch of feminism is required

The two positions do not seem to add up to me, you can't have it both ways. You can't say that I have to embrace you as being whole and entire women with utterly female understanding of the world and experience of growing up a woman and knowing how it all feels and thus accept your critique of what I should be campaigning for or believe, as being a woman is thinking you are a woman, no more and no less

While on teh other hand saying no, trans women have an expecially hard time of it as we are different to otehr women , we have had a difficult time growing up and face very specific problems and you (a non trans woman) need to understand that and fight for me (a trans woman) as the things that you usually fight for are not quite right for us or not important to us.

it doens't make sense to me. it does not seem logical.

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