Recommend me a book!

[RibenaBerry]

Right, reading these boards recently has given me a bit of a kick up the arse on my feminist principles. I've done a bit of 'light' reading in the area (think The Beauty Myth as a teenager) but think I need something a bit more serious without being so weighty I never pick it up. I'd rather have something published in, say, the last 15 years than any of the 'classics'.

Any ideas?

I beg to differ

the experiences of transwomen are not those of women

I have never felt I had the wrong body nor sought to alter it

transwomen never worry about a missed period and what it means

transwomen do not return from matrnity leave to be made redundant

transwomen etc etc etc

transwomen are not barred from attending schools in Afghanistan or made to wear burqas

I could just as easily say 'racism schmasism, the experiences of black people are those of white people'

Earwicga, I think your point about theory is interesting. That is perhaps what trans campaigners don't get. When women are talking about how trans people make women feel, they aren't talking about a theory. These are our real life feelings and experiences.

This is a feminist board on a parenting site

unsurprisingly our focus is feminist

similarly on the big/slim/whatever board their focus is weight loss and healthy eating

it has never occurrd to me however to invade their board and insist that as a thin person I know exactly what it is like to be overweight, or hijack the threads to make it all about me and my thinness

"I have never felt I had the wrong body nor sought to alter it"

Good Chibi - it has made your life a lot easier than it could have been. Thing is, you are not all women are you?

Thanks MillyR. Tere is plenty of transfeminism available and it is fabulous in breaking down the gender binary which is what causes inequality. You make a distinction between trans women and women and I do not, so when you say 'These are our real life feelings and experiences' I say yes - all of ours.

I would think my experience is that of most women

I would hazard a guess that most women do not think 'mmm ovaries, uterus, vagina... I really really think I would be more me if only I had a penis and testicles'

if you disagree I would like to see a link that indicates that the yearning to have the genitalia/sex organs of the opposite sex is in fact central to the female experience

If there is a gender binary it is between people born with female reproductive potential and everyone else. You cannot build any kind of equality without taking into account that some women must become pregnant for the world to go on, and because of that women need specific rights so that they have choices and opportunities.

Earwigca if you can't see the difference I really can't be bothered to explain and frankly I don't believe you would listen. You have an agenda and you are pushing it. fine, but don't expect us to all to be okay with it.

"I would think my experience is that of most women"

Ok Chaka Khan.

BlackDuck - I know, universal human rights is such a disgusting agenda - nobody would agree with me, ever.

MillyR - how do you mean 'if there is a gender binary'? I don't think naturally there is a gender binary - it is socially enforced.

dittany Fri 09-Jul-10 19:52:16
Sally what are the effects of the hormone blockers? What are they trying to achieve? Boys don't finish growing until they are about 18, so hormone blockers at 16 would surely interfere with that. It seems that hormone blockers in teens are designed to interfere with their biological processes.

Also what is your definition of a woman? If you've said it I must have missed it. Do you really not see any oddity in someone who has been born with a penis and testes claiming that they are female, which is biologically impossible? I realise this is your child we're discussing, so it makes it hard to see it objectively, but do you really have no worry about a boy believing he's a girl and feel that it can be sorted out with a dose of hormones?

This is better as it now goes into a discussion.

The blockers make the person male and female hormone free. As we both have a mixture of both within us. They give the person breathing space so they have time and space before going onto any other treatment. If the child within that time changes their mind, it is reversible by just not taking the drug. Endocrinologist specialise in hormones and a bararge of medical tests are taken. The hormones are not a magical pill, my child has been under 3 different psychologists.

Yes to others i can see that this is odd because it is something that they have never come across before and hard for them to except. If you look on the GIRES website it will explain it all, as they are the people that do the research into this.

Peoples definition of a woman are different. It's nothing really that i have had to think about. I just know i feel like one.

If you are thinking of GID then yes there is a mix up whilst in the womb, but Gires can explain this to you.

I would rather have a happy GID child than a dead one. Which 2 years ago it was heading that way.

Earwigca god you are patronising ...

Again earwigca please link to something which shows that the desire to possess the sex organs of the opposite sex is central to the female experience

the issues and experiences of transwomen are not perfectly congruent with those of women, and it is not an argument to suggest they are because 'that's's how I feel'

I don't see either how it is a denial of universal human rights to say that either, any more than it is a denial of universal human rights to suggest that someone who is ethnically Somali is not, in fact ethnically Iroquois, even if they 'feel' they are

E

I meant if I were to agree with a social construct of gender being put in place, I would do so on the grounds that aditional structures need to be put in place for people with female reproductive potential, as they have greater needs if they are to achieve or maintain equality in their non-reproductive roles.

I think you are making it more complicated and theoretical than is required - I will put it simply. It is very simple - women have wombs, so many of them will have children and many others will not want children. For them to fulfill their desires either way, and ensure the future of the human race, and participate fully in things other than reproduction, they need society to grant them certain rights. So we have this thing for women called feminism.

transpeople dont go down the road they do on a whim!
its a very difficult and long road and it is more complicated than disrespecting the body!if society had more understanding-theyd be less inclined to judge!

well victoria beckham is a gay man

Just thought you'd all enjoy a bit of sleb twaddle at this point...

Ok lets make this as simple as i can. You can NOT at present go onto hormone blockers until you are 16 in the uk. Irreversible changes are made when you take the opposite hormone, not the blocker.

The Endocrinologist are specialists in this field an have been for many years, this is why we have to have so many different tests done. And yes, my child had a higher levels of estrogen in her body that is normal for a male. The effect of the hormone blockers stops any further gender development, not the bodies development, bones etc grow as normal, just a bit slower.

One minute you seem to want a dictionary definition of what a woman is, the next you seem to want a personal one.
You could ask 1000 people them same question and get different answers. It is personal to each person.

"One of the big things I have against trans is the complete lack of respect for bodies". It is not a clack of respect for their bodies it is a loathig, to be stuck in a body that you feel does not belong to you, is a better discription.

As from where i got the link from, i got through an email from a work friend.

playground again

well victoria beckham is a gay man

Just thought you'd all enjoy a bit of sleb twaddle at this point...

just as i thought we were getting somewhere

this is not experimenting on young peoples bodies at all!
it is helping the young people!
by doing this-it is stopping a lot of suicides!

Nobody knows everything. Did that stop people trying to find a cure for cancer? oh i suppose thats ok because of the cancers women get that men don't.

"This is basically an experiment on young people's bodies". What the hell would you know? Specialist in the area are you? GENDER AND SEX ARE DIFFERENT.

So once again we are experimenting on our children. We are nothing but child abusers aren't we?

I bet you haven't even read the GIRES site?

I wondered where everyone was and have now found you all! Have just spent the last couple of hours trawling through this and have found it quite upsetting and strange really.

Sorry for coming in so late but here is my twopenneth.

This all started because someone recommended a book by germaine greer and someone else thought that she was a bad recommendation.

That seemed to develop very quickly into a discussion about transgender, and feminism, as I understand it this is a pretty volatile topic of conversation in the feminist & transgender worlds.

My thoughts at the start of the thread were as follows, and they have been knocked backwards and forwards a few times but I think I am sure.

The reason that I became a feminist, was due to my experience of growing up as a female in our society in the UK.

Various experiences of sexual assault by men, the constact leching and leering, and touching and prodding. Being bullied by males into going out with them/having sex with them, having to smile and giggle when I was accosted by men 3 times my age because that is what is expected of girls, if you do anything else you risk violence. Feeling extremely vulnerable of sexual assault when walking alone at night, having to conform to certain standards of behaviour.

As a female who liked maths and sciences, and didn't actually take as much shit from men as a lot of women, I had to put up with stick for that too, doing sciences even though it was considered a bit odd, that sort of thing.

Later finding out that I was being paid less than the men at work for the same job, even though I was better at my job. And I couldn't do anything about it because when I found out, I was pregnant, and therefore had no "bargaining power".

And so on.

These are the reasons that I became a feminist, and I do not think that a person born and raised a man can really fundamentally understand quite how all that stuff feels. Unless they have been assigned a female very young and been brought up a female, I would think.

So when a person who has been born and raised a man says that the viewpoint on feminism of a person who has been born and raised a woman is wrong, then I feel that is not right.

It is no more right than I or anyone else born and raised a female in the UK can claim to truly understand what it means to be a boy born and raised here.

Personally I believe that people have the right, to do whatever is right for them in this life, as long as no-one else is hurt. So if people want to live as the opposite gender and have that recognised in law that is no problem with me. If people want to take hormones and have surgery then that again is up to them. But I don't think that those things can really mean that a person can understand what it is to grow up as the other gender as they have not done it.

A few other random points:

• Woman is a state of mind. If that is the case why don't women who live in repressive regimes simply "think man" and have all their problems solved? I would happily "think man" if it meant I could have grown up with all the opportunities that being male in our society affords. Being a woman is more than a state of mind.

• I agree with the idea that sakura has put forward - if people feel that what they are does not conform to society, then society should change, not people. Have additional genders, great. Whatever makes people happy. But not a pretence that someone who was raised as one sex can truly understand what it is like to be raised as the other.

• This "otehr brain" business. How on earth can someone possibly know that they have the "brain of the opposite sex" - not being teh opposite sex how can anyone know that? I am (in many ways) very stereotypically male in my outlook and the things I like and so on. It doens't mean I am a man. In our society I have no desire to be a man. If I lived in a society where women were forced into extremely proscribed gender roles and I was not allowed to follow my interests then maybe I would consider myself to have a "male brain" and wish I were a man. Certainly in previous centuries girls passed off as men in order to do the things they wanted, which as women they were not able to do. It has been mentioned that this still happens in Iran. If the woman mechanic who was described earlier lived in the UK rather than Iran, it is perfectly possible that she might not feel the need to live as a man, as she would be able to be "herself" as a woman.

So maybe the problem with all of this is still extreme genderisation, and until we get away from that none of us will be free.