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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Recommend me a book!

1001 replies

RibenaBerry · 24/06/2010 13:11

Right, reading these boards recently has given me a bit of a kick up the arse on my feminist principles. I've done a bit of 'light' reading in the area (think The Beauty Myth as a teenager) but think I need something a bit more serious without being so weighty I never pick it up. I'd rather have something published in, say, the last 15 years than any of the 'classics'.

Any ideas?

OP posts:
wastingaway · 09/07/2010 15:49

We clearly are under attack.

NatachaK · 09/07/2010 16:04

Frickonastick;

Re Napoleon;

Your analogy fails thoroughly on elementary logic alone.

Someone else cannot be Napoleon because Napoleon was Napoleon. Transgender people, on the other hand, do not claim to be anyone other than themselves.

frikonastick · 09/07/2010 16:05

yes.

of course you can 'feel' you are british.

that doesnt actually make you british.

you can 'feel' you are an orangutan.

this does not make you one.

[sighs]

frikonastick · 09/07/2010 16:06

a male cannot be female becasue he is already male.

natachaK

elementary logic.........

sally66 · 09/07/2010 16:28

wastingaway
The main point is that some feminists believe this doesn't make a mtf transgender person an actual woman

That is one transphobic comment.

If the law see them as women/female, who are these feminist to judge? Or are they above the law?

We are all human beings with feelings. Considerations to all should be the way ahead. Creed, colour, sex and gender.

Maybe if people were more understanding and not so selfish and blinkered the world would be a better place.

Blackduck · 09/07/2010 16:31

Wasting -glad I am not the only one who feels like that!

LePapa · 09/07/2010 16:36

"of course you can 'feel' you are british.

that doesnt actually make you british.

you can 'feel' you are an orangutan.

this does not make you one."

Thanks... that's that one cleared up then. Glad your world is so black and white, must be very easy to live there with nobody challenging the boundaries of the human condition you've been indoctrinated with. I'll make sure to tell my ulster / british friends that their not British as they don't have the right credentials... And tell the Gurkas to bugger off back to Asia and stop this silliness around British rights... you might feel it, you might fight for it, but your not, so sod off!

There was a case of a girl who had lived her life as a girl and felt like a girl... aged about 10 or 11 she was jumping over a river (not a metaphorical one) and out popped some male bits and bobs. "Get the hell out of our sex interloper... A male spy!", seems to be the prevalent thinking from the feminist boot camp.

"I wonder how many women, over the years, have wished with everything they had in their soul, that they were born men--and continue to do today. Trans women have a get out clause that born women do not and this is what makes us different."

Old Sakira there seems to have no grasp on the trans condition at all.... I know trans male child who is male... doesn't wish it, but is it, in their heart and soul. They would wish they could just be, with everything in their soul, to be just like everyone else and not have to walk this difficult and dangerous, prejudice ridden path... nothing to do with fear of the female condition, but to do with a brain inside their head that screams at them to be... to be themselves. The comment about the 'get out clause' shows a certain perceived jealousy? A get out clause? A get out of what? That if being a woman is too hard they can revert back? This isn't something that is decided by an individual... but decided by biology, by nature!

Get out clause! I've heard it all now! Like some sort of whim! Dress or trousers today... hmmmm.... You really sound like an evangelical... a laughable evangelical at that. An evangelical feminist who believes feminist texts to be the 'light and the way'... and that those who aren't in the hardcore sect are going to a patriarchal hell... or Mint Rhino Club!

earwicga · 09/07/2010 16:46

LePapa - much as I am enjoying your comments, I hope you don't mind if I make a noise of dissent. It's not all feminists that are transphobic, indeed I find most aren't - including me, obviously. It's not even all radical feminists that are transphobic, just a small number of them who prefer to live by dogma rather than the realities shown to them.

Other than that - carry on as before

earwicga · 09/07/2010 16:49

Wasting & BlackDuck - why do you feel under attack? You have been debating on this thread for quite some time now about an aspect of life which is academic for you. Now you are faced with the reality it is a fantastic opportunity to ask questions and learn as a feminist and a human being. Funny really that your reaction to reality is to find it threatening.

frikonastick · 09/07/2010 16:49

lepapa, i have already said that i personally dont have any issue with a person who is transgendered living their life the way they want. or in fact, to be themselves.

i DO have an issue with transgendered people being able to call themselves female, i.e they are a different sex and gender from what they were born.

i am entitled to disagree. it does not make me transphobic. or in fact, in contravention of the law.

sally66 · 09/07/2010 17:00

Wasting & BlackDuck - why do you feel under attack? You have been debating on this thread for quite some time now about an aspect of life which is academic for you. Now you are faced with the reality it is a fantastic opportunity to ask questions and learn as a feminist and a human being. Funny really that your reaction to reality is to find it threatening.

well said earwicga.

Shame when people like to box themselves in safely and not wanting to let anything else in. They must be very insecure.

Shame that people think that there views are the right ones without taking others views or feeling into consideration.

LuciferWasAnAngel · 09/07/2010 17:05

'A woman in the head' I hear you scoff. Ok, so those of you who have a problem with this definition could you offer me your cast iron deal-sealer? I doubt that anyone here is going to speak out in favour of social gender roles as the tool for identifying men from women. One could of course define a woman as a human being with the capability (at some point of her life at least) to carry a child, but to use this strict guideline would involve declassifying infertile women from the female category. But presumably those in the 'genitals dictate whether you're a man or a woman' school of though would take exception with this. The question is, what would we do with someone whose genitals have been removed in an accident? Is a man who has his penis burnt off in an accident no longer a man? But he's not a woman either. Hmm. We'll we'd have to stick 'it' in the pile with all the other people who fail to live up to the privileged, specialised, prescribed versions of gender. There are those who would pipe up that such a man was BORN with male genitalia so therefore he is a man.

But just how many male genitalia does one need in order to justify themselves as male? Caster Semenya, the 800m Olympic runner, was born with outer female genitalia and a pair of internal testes judging by all accounts. But it wouldn't be right to call her a man would it, because she was raised as a female... oh that leads us onto the children discussed in this thread who are also now being raised as female, and yet that is not enough to make them women in certain bigoted people's eyes.

This subject is constantly discussed by people with the most basic and infantile understanding of the facts about gender. Guess what? Life isn?t simple and those who seek to reduce complex issues to 'men have willy's' and 'girls have vaginas' are to be regarded with suspicion, as are people who use the term 'hermaphroditism' in relation to human beings. Such people are clearly extremely ignorant of the matters they sprout forth on.

The human body is a complex mass of tissues, all formed from the same primordial soup into a variety of shapes and permutations. This is normal. It is normal, for example, for a certain amount of men within a given population to grow breasts. It is also not uncommon for some females to have almost no growth. But aside from these secondary sexual characteristics, there is the rest for the human body to think about. Those who would accuse trans people of just 'thinking' they are in the wrong gender are actually overlooking a crucial fact within all of this - that the human brain is actually an organ in our bodies, just like other gendered organs such as... the genitals. And people who know about this sort of thing - you know, doctors - have recognised the fact that male and female brains differ and that, just like testes, a male brain is just as possible to turn up on the body of someone in possession of lady-parts downstairs. Comparisons to strawberries or people thinking themselves other items of fruit are ridiculous and childishly reactionary. People can't be fruit and they haven't been walking around trying to get everyone to see them as fruit for the pasty few thousand years at least (at great risk to themselves most of the time) - as trans people have done. Please can we have some more informed debate on this subject - it's desperately calling out for it.

As a side note, I am a trans woman and I was bullied by my father for years for not living up the gender expectations of a young boy. I was ridiculed for the way I spoke, walked and acted, in addition to being violently bullied throughout my entire school life. I told my family I was really female inside aged 4 and they did nothing to help me, in fact they actively made it hard for me, and encouraged me to attend boxing lessons, football and the like. Then I had to go through a completely unnecessary puberty, the effects of which I will never truly be able to erase (i.e. my height). Luckily I am an attractive young trans woman now who overcame all of this despite a terrible childhood. I am happy in myself.

But I am not happy about reading the comments of certain individuals who claim that loving parents, who actually take the brave step to support their child under medical supervision, are child abusers. I would have had a much happier time of it with parents like those. Abuse stems from the very sort of unpleasant ideologies expressed here, including twaddle about the rights of trans people detracting from those of 'women' - as if the two were totally discrete categories.

By the way, I never wear heels and today, as is often the case, I am wearing no eye make up (though I do confess to lip-gloss). I have had zero breast implants and facial surgery before anyone accuses me of contributing to the pernicious gender roles which are, in fact, our joint enemy. Thanks.

LePapa · 09/07/2010 17:15

earwicga... I'll not continue with my thoughts regarding making a comment that God wasted a perfectly good rib then! I think with such a comment I'd have to get a club and live under bridge waiting on goats to beat and eat.

Thanks for setting me straight, in the cut and thrust there is what military strategists call 'collateral damage'. And as any good US general would do, I apologise for blowing up your market place inadvertently!

frikonastick... Of course you can disagree! And I with you, in this great virtual world of free speech and anonymous pontificating. the thrust of the talk though seems to be about MTF trans individuals... OK so some females are not going to accept them as female because they weren't born that way... but does that mean that women who were born with less than ideal female assets can also be downgraded? It could be argued that this stance is akin to body-fascism, and that ideals are only what defines a female... surely an argument that all sensible woman would want to distance themselves from. It seems to be that it's more of a case of where one draws the line... the trans supportive posters would draw it as the previously mocked 'state of mind', the opposers as a physical manifestation. But as I mentioned earlier, notions of ethnicity and belonging draw similar comparisons, and those within the predefined borders often reject those they deem as outsiders despite the state of mind. You can of course draw your line where you like, but thankfully from my standpoint legislators and law makers are starting to move towards the mental definitions in the gender area, just as there were moves 40 yrs ago on free notions of ethnicity and belonging, sexual preferences and religion.

I have noticed though that all the talk is of MTF trans individuals... how do the trans-resistant folk feel about FTM trans individuals. I as a man am not threatened, and not for some Freudian theory on the lack of a phallus incidently... or the female condition as it was stated earlier... and not by me!... FTM trans tend to be better looking than the rugged male, but my now reduced risk of attracting a mate as a result of the increasingly adverse odds does not lead me to the conclusion that I should reject FTM trans individuals, despite the ever increasing scarcity of females wishing to procreate, or at least practice procreation with me! FTM's can live happily as male and do what they like as far as I'm concerned.

Do the trans-resistant folk see FTM individuals as rejectors of their bodies, as mutilators bullied into it by patriarchal society? Are they traitors to the sisterhood?

wastingaway · 09/07/2010 17:17

Lucifer, could you point me in the direction of the research into male/female brains please? I think this is the first time on the thread anyone has mentioned anything concretely physical about transsexuality as distinct from intersex, which is obviously a physical state.

frikonastick · 09/07/2010 17:25

lepapa

"... but does that mean that women who were born with less than ideal female assets can also be downgraded"

of course not. i dont even know what a less than ideal female asset would be!
except for, i dont know, being born with a penis and XY chromosomes. that would not fit into my ideal of a female, no.

and we are not talking about FTM individuals because they are not trying to identify as female. they are in fact, already female. that they dont want to be is thier own business.

dittany · 09/07/2010 17:26

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

earwicga · 09/07/2010 17:26

"The question is, what would we do with someone whose genitals have been removed in an accident? Is a man who has his penis burnt off in an accident no longer a man?"

I mentioned David Reimer many hundreds of comments ago but nobody was interested. His genitals were burnt off as a baby and he was bought up as a girl and never told he was born a boy. Didn't work as he was a boy despite the socialisation. Very sad story. Says something very important about the 'gender being a socialised construct only meme' imo.

frikonastick · 09/07/2010 17:27

lucifer

"including twaddle about the rights of trans people detracting from those of 'women' - as if the two were totally discrete categories."

ahem. they ARE discrete catagories.

thats. the. whole. point.

earwicga · 09/07/2010 17:28

Ha ha LePapa - just wait til my sister gets here, she's bigger than me...

earwicga · 09/07/2010 17:31

"Do you really think that feminists ought to have respect for patriachal law, which has done nothing for women, and has in many cases actively oppressed us? Such a weak argument."

Really dittany, nothing? Lol, you are so funny

"I'd also like to point out that it's very culturally masculine for people to be making these long bombastic posts trying to teach women the error of our ways."

Because we all know that ALL women act one way and ALL men act another way. What an utterly sexist comment to make. Well done on your feminist comment there. Adding the 'culturally' in there doesn't change the sexism.

chibi · 09/07/2010 17:33

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

earwicga · 09/07/2010 17:36

Go for it chibi! Happy for your decision.

dittany · 09/07/2010 17:37

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

chibi · 09/07/2010 17:40

it's fantastic, come join me in being a transwoman, fellow feminists

i think i will find a trans board to troll, tell them they have no right to think what they think, and accuse them of hate crimes in an attempt to silence dissent

no one can possibly argue with me as i too am a transwoman (albeit one born genetically female) thus i claim all authority on trans issues

actually there aren't any trans issues as being trans is only a state of mind

i am loving this

whose identity shall i co-opt next, a black woman, a mongolian herdsman, a lesbian millionaire

fuck it

I AM A UNICORN

chibi · 09/07/2010 17:42

Dittany would you like to play too

you can be a hippogryff, or perhaps a basilisk

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