Recommend me a book!

[RibenaBerry]

Right, reading these boards recently has given me a bit of a kick up the arse on my feminist principles. I've done a bit of 'light' reading in the area (think The Beauty Myth as a teenager) but think I need something a bit more serious without being so weighty I never pick it up. I'd rather have something published in, say, the last 15 years than any of the 'classics'.

Any ideas?

Hey MillyR,

You could ask a thousand different people that question and get a thousand different answers.

I'll be honest and say i don't know but the women that i surround myself with and share my life with are strong, emotionally aware, understanding, and supportive which is at the other end of the scale when it comes to my experience of men.

We as people have the power to define our own path, and if all things were equal then there wouldn't be any need for this discussion.

I'll be the first to admit i just don't have the knowledge to deconstruct 'woman' to the point of being able to offer a definition all i can do is offer opinion on how i see the difference between men and women as i see them

"Could we have a link please Selacious."

Feel like sharing your hate a little further dittany?

I don't why the NHS are using gender in this way.

According to the WHO:

"Sex" refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women.

"Gender" refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviours, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for men and women.

Since this thread started out as about recommended reading, other than Judith Butler, I would recommend "Evolutions Rainbow" by Joan Roughgarden. In this book she debunks a whole lot of the assumtions, particularly those earlier on in this thread which talk about XX and XY and other biological aspects of gender and sexuality. In fact the only biologically significant difference between the sexes is gamete size. (Incidentally, medical technologists are claiming that soon transwomen will be able to bear their own genetic children) This book also removes the assumption that transgender (or indeed intersex) people are in any way unnatural. Trans people are simply the manifestation of the range of diversity within the human species whose identities are erased by a culturally imposed binary. Roughgarden also demonstrates how biologists have been guilty, over a long period of time, of erasing people and other species, who do not conform to culturally imposed binary gender roles. A great read, which introduced me to the Gobi Fish; a species which changes sex on a regular basis.

Joan Roughgarden ought to know about this stuff; she is professor of biology at Stanford University and writing this book so upset the academic patriarchy in the United States that it almost cost her her career.

hey dittany,

Did you mean the link to the guardian ?

www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/aug/20/germaine-greer-caster-semenya

Also just out of interest Caster was found to be female and can compete as one and will return to competition this year

SelaciousCrumb, thanks for that. Can you define intersex for me please? What qualities define an intersex person. Is an intersex person a person who is courageous, kind-hearted, loving? Or are they maybe musical, carefree and poetic? What defines an intersex person? How would I know if my son or daughter was actually intersex?

Natachak, I think whatever the writer said, you have misunderstood it. Obviously there are many differences between the sexes that are not about gamete size, the shape of a pelvis for example.

Of course there is no need for a gender binary. There is nothing wrong with having more than two genders, and nobody on this thread has disputed that.

Could you define what a woman is please.

intersex - one having both male and female sexual characteristics and organs; at birth an unambiguous assignment of male or female cannot be made

Inter-sexed people are born with abiguous genitals, Some people use the term hermaphrodite leading to the medical professional not being able to tick the male or female box on the birth cert.

It's just a thing that happens sometimes, it's no-ones fault. IUt was only recently that Mum and i discussed it and i could see her pain. It was the she said the most difficult choice she'd ever had to make. I believe her totally.

You'd know if your child was inter-sexed. I had both ovaries and a penis, It was natures way of saying i couldn't have children. I also feel that it has left me dual gendered and many old societies do have different words for this.

It's just they have been removed from modernity as we construct a hetro-normative society

BTW;

I can't believe this, I picked out of one of the earlier posts;

"I think trans-women, therefore, are quite privileged, in ways they do not realise."

Someone with Csigender priviledge telling me how fortunate I am is a new experience, and demonstrates how some people are prepared to make quite sweeping judgements and generalisations about me based on virtually no information whatsoever.

Sally 66, so when it comes to what an intersex person is, you are prepared to define that in a biological essentialist way, but when I want to define what a woman is as a person who is born with female reproductive organs, I am called transphobic.

Why are intersex people allowed a group name based on their biological characteristics, but women are not?

MillyR;

I believe there was a court case, a few years ago somewhere in the United States which centred around the need to come up with a watertight definition of "woman". Apparently it was impossible to find one.

So if the term woman doesn't mean anything, why do men want to become women?

Anybody remember me calling MILLYR by name transphobic?
You must have a guilty conscience.

Intersex, like GID is a medical condition. If not the NHS would NOT fund their treatment.

Being a woman is not a medical condition that needs treatment.

There seems to be difficulty even agreeing a definition of female. It doesn't surprise me that we are also struggling with a definition of woman.

Anyone and anything is a woman as long as it is penis free (or not)

my iPod is a woman
julia serrano is a woman
next door's cat is a woman

all have a unique and valid perspective on what being a woman means, in a way that I, with my xx chromosomes, uterus, ovaries, vagina etc do not

Hey Milly again,

I think inter-sexed people get a definition based on there genitals, because it's outside the binary and seen as a birth defect. I use the word inter-sexed to seperate me from male and distinguish that i'm not female.

You are right though, I'm not just inter-sexed, that isn't who i am in the same say a vagina doesn't make you a woman or the ability to carry a child doesn't make you woman. My abiguous birth doesn't define me fully. but it gives me breathing space.

As for being called transphobic for defining a woman by her genitals, i think that's an over re-action.

Sally66, I didn't say that you called me transphobic.

In what sense are all people who are intersex to be perceived as having a medical condition. Not everybody who is intersex wants to have any medical treatment or considers their physical state to be a 'condition.'

MillyR;

The term "woman" didn't mean anything in a legal sense. I hasten to add that the term "man" was also impossible to define in the same court case.

I suspect that in this case the law is an ass, but it does demonstrate Bertrand Russell's observation that "Everything is vague to a degree you do not realize till you have tried to make it precise."

hi-
in case no ones noticed-im new here!
i guess me joining was a bit like"get over here"-but i havent come for a fight!
looking through the posts-i have seen some really interesting things said-and i do like a good debate!
sadly-i feel that some of the posts come across as quite aggressive and im not pointing fingers at anyone!
having said this-i feel that some are really not understanding trans issues-im not arguing about this as i feel that maybe with more discussion-there will be more understanding!
i feel that some are being offensive but-
as i said-i think this might be because of not understanding!
id like to point out also that-many years ago
i did a lot of work for womens rights-this was because of what myself had gone through-and we was reviled!
many years later-im still fighting[groan]
for diffrent reasons!
i can see lots of points a view[on here]
im not a trans advocate-i dont always agree with trans issues-and argue about this also!
im infamous for arguing with people in the transworld-im just a human being that can see right from wrong!
hmmmmm-yep-both women and transpeople are still oppressed groups-why then this argument in some quarters?isnt it time to stop fighting and come together with some common ground?
another hmmmm-isnt this a site for parents?
im assuming we all parents then-
look at youre child-this child is precious to you and youre world-and when you had this child-you probably held this child in youre arms-and promised to be the best parent by them!so did i!!
and i have!
ive been through all sorts of oppression-
im not feeling sorry for myself and have no axe to grind-
but many years later-im still seeing stupidity-unbelievable!

Selaciouscrumb, having female reproductive organs is what defines me as a woman. It isn't what defines me as a human being, but it is what defines me as a woman.

In answer to your question "why do men want to become women?" I suspect one of the answers is that they are not 'becoming' women, they already are.

I don't consider myself to have a condition. I have a full body displacement.

You are right in what you say though not all people will correct the mistakes of their parents because not all parents would be inaccurate with their choice.

All inter-sexed children do have a condition at birth however because medical science, religion, politics, and the law don't register a third gender.

Because the NHS couldn't recognise me at birth i was perceived to be defective

Sorry for the Wiki link but i don't like to flood with a copy paste
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex#Hermaphrodite

No offence intended SelaciousCrumb.

But to be born with both sets of sexual organs is not the norm. hence a medical condition. Hope you understand what i mean.

i can't understand how people with so little knowledge can be so judgmental. This make me so glad that MY GID child was born to me. And not some of people here that are not even trying to understand. My child has gone through hell for many years and i am so glad the she is now getting the treatment she needs.

Yes i call her she and yes she is now my daughter.

So selaciouscrumb, could they not test you to see whether you were xx or xy? (sorry if that's an intrusive question)