Recommend me a book!

[RibenaBerry]

Right, reading these boards recently has given me a bit of a kick up the arse on my feminist principles. I've done a bit of 'light' reading in the area (think The Beauty Myth as a teenager) but think I need something a bit more serious without being so weighty I never pick it up. I'd rather have something published in, say, the last 15 years than any of the 'classics'.

Any ideas?

As near as I can understand it

Not feeling like a man=feeling like a woman

i am really struggling with this

I can accept a trans woman as 'notaman', but I can see how a transwoman is thus a woman

I am not a woman because I lack a penis

I was joking ......

Just find this whole thread weird...though clearly there has been some kind of 'hey get over to mumsnet' going on....

Oops

can't see how a transwoman is thus a woman

Although apparently you can be a woman with male sexual charcteristics/genitalia intact

Quote from NatachaK "Hawaii has elected a transgender woman as its state governor".

Are you referring to Linda Lingle who has been the Governor of Hawaii since 2002?

Her biography at the National Governors Association website does not mention that Lingle is a trans woman but it does state that she is "the first Republican to lead the Aloha State in more than 40 years. She is also the first former mayor, first woman, first neighbor island resident and first person of Jewish ancestry to hold the position."

Wouldn't you think trans woman would get a mention if it was true? What is your information source on your claim?

Strange for trans people to be accused on here of not taking part in a discussion. So-called ?radical? feminists have done their best to exclude and bully transwomen for decades; Janice Raymond actually called for transwomen to be "mandated out of existence" which is effectively advocating hate crime against trans women.

Sakura I think that if you read my posts I have never claimed that women are not an oppressed group, indeed I am very aware of how masculine hegemonic power results in women being so oppressed that many women are not even in the position of conceptualising that things could and should be any different from the way they are. However that does not mean that transwomen are not also an oppressed group (or transmen or other trans people who do not fit into the gender binary for that matter), or that transgender children are not an oppressed group. However some feminists, as well as others, for example the far right and religious zealots, are oppressing trans people.

I agree with you that a child born with male genitalia should not necessarily be described as female if he or she likes feminine things, however many trans children are actually transsexual and need to be listened to and their identities treated with respect.

BTW Sakura, referring to someone who clearly presents as female as ?he? is utterly pathetic, and strongly suggests that you are unable to answer the points raised. I would have liked to debate the issues with you but will not do so when treated like that.

Frickonstack, I doubt whether any transgender person reading this thread would consider it to be non-aggressive, non-personal and considered. If you think that comments to the effect that parents of transgender children who treat them as they would wish to be treated are child abusers represents non-aggressive, non-personal and considered debate you are obviously on a different planet from me. I suspect what you really mean is ?why can?t these pesky trans people go away and let us debate (and advocate the oppression and bullying of) trans kids in peace.?

The problem is that, as one of my transsexual friends put it ?My existence is not a matter for discussion and debate?. Trans people are here, we exist, we have always existed in every culture for thousands of years, we will continue to exist in many forms including some which are inconvenient for the ideology of a small group of feminists and religious zealots and right-wing politicians. Trans people and children do not exist for anyone?s convenience but their own.

For those who have obviously not read what I have written, the reference to hate-crime was where Dittany accused parents of transgender children who accept their children as they are, to be child abusers. This is effectively advocating child abuse by proxy. Whether or not it constitutes a hate crime, it is, in my view utterly unacceptable behaviour for anyone to advocate that any child should be subject to abusive treatment.

Dittany;

No-one, anywhere in the world, is, or has ever, advocated that children under 16, or most usually under 18, should be given hormones or subjected to any surgical sex-change treatment at all. I would certainly argue against anything like that as a matter of principle.

However permitting transgender children to present themselves and behave in the way they wish is very good parenting.

Natachak, the problem in this discussion is not whether or not trans people exist. The problem we are attempting to discuss is whether women who are born as biological females are allowed to exist as a discrete group.

Of course women as a group should be allowed to discuss that.

And it is still very difficult to understand your argument when you haven't defined what 'woman' or 'female' means.

I am the mother of a girl. I feel that she has the right to have her identity treated with respect, but you seem to think this is only about trans children and no other child matters. I don't see how it is respectful to attempt to turn my daughter's sex into some non-specific thing which cannot be defined.

If transgender is a term that refers to people whose behaviour and desires differ from those expected of their sex by society, then most people on this thread, and most women I know, could define themselves as transgender.

So have we had a definition of women yet?

Good evening,
I joined the site because of this thread. Firstly I will say I?m a socialised male, I was raised as male. I was ?fixed? at birth after being born inter-sexed and my parents had to make what I see as a heart breaking choice. It being 1973 and being born into a family where there where already three daughters it was decided that I should be a boy.
I?m reversing that choice and taking control of my body through medical intervention supported by the NHS.
I?ll also apologies if this turns into a little bit of a ramble in advance. I should also say that most of my lesbian friends see me as a second wave feminist, and my queer friends might call me radical, or a an anarchic-queer.
All of that leads me to one conclusion about myself in that I am too many people a contradiction. I am not to be confused with a transwoman, which is a totally different thing all together.
So here we go 
Transitionally, I?m in a place where I realise that I will be a masculine woman and I?m fine with that. Like wastingaway I see many masculine and butch women (I see a big difference between the two). I?ll end up 6ft 2 size 14 and 11 stone. At the moment after 18 months of medical treatment I have changed enough that I get looked at but I?m still slightly in the male end of the spectrum. On more than a handful of occasions this year I have been told I?m a ?pretty man?. At some point I?d like that to change to being a handsome woman.
Some of the points made by some of the people here I find sad. I have my own business. I use an exclusively female skilled team or electricians, and builders. As for the comment on football. I think you?ll find that the women?s footie is both growing in popularity and the Gunners female team do rather well as to the Women?s England team.
On the serious point. I understand where NatachaK is coming from, I?ve had some very challenging discussions in theory groups about this topic and I have to agree that while I will physically transition to a point where society will accept me as a masculine woman it doesn?t make me one.
We are sexed and raised in one of the rather limited two genders. As prescribed in the mother of patriarchal texts, The Bible, which is the corner stone of modern society which goes to show how outdated modern society, can be at times. But a book written by men, mainly because I dare say women weren?t allowed to be educated and seen only as baby factories, or used for casual throwing practice while being stoned to death for the most minor of things.
As I said earlier I lived and worked very successfully as a man, but I was never part of the institution. That instilled socialisation gives me a different outlook on the world and as my socialisation is the underpinning of who I am if will take me another 37 years just to break even on life experience and I have no appreciation of the pressures that girl face in everyday life. No socialised male can.
This is the point at which my politics conflict with my gender, my sex, my history and my being. But feminism in an open discussion with women who know I?m struggling to make sense of what it is to be me can help.
That?s not say I have never had total body neurosis; it?s not to say I didn?t feel social pressures to be a certain way or to do certain things. Boys and men have the same issues just dressed up differently.
As for the children. I knew from five that I wasn?t right physically but in 1978 in Newcastle, even at a young age I knew I couldn?t say anything. I am over joyed when I hear about children being raised in family situations where they can talk to their parents about such things. I wish I could have at such a young age.
But
While there ARE trans-children, who are genuine I also feel that after seeing more than my fair share of trans documentaries that there are parents who might be guilty of prompting their child. But then again there are parents who force feed their children nothing but crap and no-one calls that child abuse when it clearly is.
Natachk sorry but most of the transwomen I see at Charring Cross DON?T wear flats and trousers, most of the trans-women I see out socially DON?T wear flats and trousers. Again I?m sorry.
What I don?t like are comments made by Greer in the Guardian about blue eye shadow. Just thought I slip that in.

maybe some of yoy should read this

www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Gender-dysphoria/Pages/Causes.aspx

NOT A MEDICAL CONDITION?

AS mums all i can say is that i am disappointed at some of your views

i found it on face book Are there other inter-sexed people on this thread ?

Are any of the people coming on to MN going to bother defining what a woman is?

sally66, thanks for the NHS link. It is an interesting and informative summary.

My understanding of the article is that it regards sex as chromosomes and gender as anatomy. Do others read it as that or is it just me?

I knew about the chromosomes bit already. I find the idea that gender is anatomy thought- provoking.