Recommend me a book!

[RibenaBerry]

Right, reading these boards recently has given me a bit of a kick up the arse on my feminist principles. I've done a bit of 'light' reading in the area (think The Beauty Myth as a teenager) but think I need something a bit more serious without being so weighty I never pick it up. I'd rather have something published in, say, the last 15 years than any of the 'classics'.

Any ideas?

unbelievable.

completely unbelievable.

hate crime????????????????????

INCITEMENT to hate crime???????????????

am i the only one like this

"I suspect, once some parents of transgender children get to hear about this, Mumsnet and some of the contributors to this thread will be reported to the police"

We have been discussing what a female is. If that is not allowed then the law really is in a sorry state.

Sakura says;

"Why is it wrong for feminists to reject the idea that people who feel uncomfortable in their bodies should change them?"

Why is it that some feminists (by no means the majority) want to dictate to transmen and transwomen what they should do with their bodies?

Sakura's statement reveals the basc hypocrisy behind a the ideology of a certain group of feminists who are in favour of women having control over their own own bodies but against this for transwomen and transmen.

rubbish.

no she isnt!

oh dear god, the rage....renders me inarticulate!

aaarrgghhhh......

"Why is it that some feminists (by no means the majority) want to dictate to transmen and transwomen what they should do with their bodies?"

No, we don'T dictate

If you'd read the thread you'd know feminists also don't think it's good for young girls and women to change their bodies either. So we think that all people should be accepted by society the way that they are. Society is going to have to change and get away from the bigoted view that if someone has XYZ traits (pink and sparkly ones) then they must be women. As you can imagine, this is quite offensive to females.

"a certain group of feminists who are in favour of women having control over their own own bodies "

Don'T tell me he's on about abortion here...

It would be a great shame if we were not able to debate these issues,NatachaK.
I can see that as the parent of a transgender child I would feel more strongly,but from my own point of view this thread has focussed my thoughts on the whole transgender issue - without the comments from other posters which I strongly disagreed with I wouldn't have been pushed to do this to the same extent.(My point being that open debate will hopefully reduce transphobia rather than increase it)

I don't think anyone has incited anyone to hate-crime.

But Sakura,when you say
"And stop confounding and changing what we're saying." could you please acknowlege that there are different views on this thread - those are your views.

(Personally I am not bothered,on reflection,by the pink and sparkly traits=woman,as I have just deduced that as I do not possess a pink and sparkly bone in my body,I must be a man.Well,that's a relief,and should make my life easier.But this is not the point here,as no one has said pink and sparkly = women - or if they have I've missed it.)

Blimey - what on earth??? Hate-crime, police, has the world gone mad......?

Natacha - thank you for your post. I find it very hard to understand why commenters on this thread are getting off on attacking trans children and their parents and agree with you that this consitutes a hate crime. This discussion wouldn't stay on Mumsnet for 5 seconds if it was about black children or about disabled children or any other group of children. That Mumsnet considers the hate speech on this thread valid is truly shameful.

I wasn't including you in what we're.

"earwicga, what constitutes a hate crime is re-defining women and eliminating them, erasing their biological and emotional experiences by law. I feel violated by this.
But it's ok to do that to women; it always has been.

"Simone de Beauvoir exposes the fallacy of this "separate but equal" doctrine in the preface to THE SECOND SEX:

In actuality the relation of the two sexes is not . . . like that of two electrical poles, for man represents both the positive and the neutral, as is indicated by the common use of man to designate human beings in general; whereas woman represents only the negative, defined by limiting criteria, without reciprocity.... "The female is a female by virtue of a certain lack of qualities," said Aristotle; "we should regard the female nature as afflicted with a natural defectiveness." And St. Thomas for his part pronounced woman to be "an imperfect man," all "incidental" being . . .

Thus, humanity is male and man defines woman not in herself but as relative to him; she is not regarded as an autonomous being. 1

This diseased view of woman as the negative of man infests all human psychological reality, and destroys the very fiber of human identity.

This pathological view of female negativity has been enforced on our flesh for thousands of years. The savage mutilation of the female body, undertaken to distinguish us absolutely from men, has occurred on a massive scale. For instance, in China, for one thousand years, women's feet were reduced to stumps through footbinding. " DWORKIN

Sakura wrote;

�as radical feminists attempt to break down the gender constructs, trans-women are busy working against them-- in the opposite direction. Trans-women want to be defined as women and want the gender constructs to remain in place.�

This is a complete misunderstanding of the position of most transwomen, whether this �misunderstanding� is deliberate or not is questionable. In fact the vast majority of transwomen I know are actively involved in deconstructing the gender binary. Indeed many transmen transwomen do not fit the stereotype of transsexuals held by a certain group of feminists. It is in fact very common for transsexuals to express gender identities which are outside the gender binary, in fact almost all of those I know do so, almost none fit the stereotypical trope of feminine women or masculine men. Indeed a recent study (Sanger 2010) showed that many of them do not consider themselves to me �men trapped in women�s bodies� or vice versa, but that their bodies, after surgery more closely approximate their gender identities. Almost all the transwomen I know wear trousers and flat shoes pretty much all the time. The existence of people like this has almost certainly done much more to break down the culturally imposed gender binary than a thousand Janice Raymonds.

This is the problem with the so-called �radical� feminists, they are stuck with an ideology with respect to transgender people which is not only totally discredited but which is also based on a stereotype of transgender women which is wildly out of date and out of touch with reality. Transgender people are very different from the picture of them which Sakura paints.

earwicga and natachaK, you arent helping your cause by refusing to actually engage in debate (which has been non agressive, non personal and increadibly considered) and instead throwing threats around and accusing people of hate crimes!

it beggars belief

Okay, Natachak, if you are open to having a discussion, I will be happy to have one with you.
Fundamentally, I am not opposed to transgender people. I also think it's a good thing for us to deconstruct gender, which is why in many ways I believe trans women and radical feminists can help each other. If we can meet in the middle, that would be a good thing.
The problem is, you see, is that women are an oppressed group, as you must know, and with it they bring their own set of needs to the table. Some feminists, not all, feel that women's specific issues are being trampled on. Will you be happy to talk through this with me?

I don't think anyone has said children should be forced to conform to a gender stereotype have they?

Where's the hate crime?

As a mum of a trangender child i find that the implication of calling parents like me abusers as TOTALLY insulting.

How would you feel if you had a child with such a serious MEDICAL condition? Yes it is not a common condition and our children need ALL the help that they can get. INCLUDING understanding from others.

TESS OCT 2009

Wendy can only dream that her 15-year-old transgendered child had such a supportive school. From day one at her secondary school, Sally was bullied on a terrifying scale. She had her hair set on fire, was splattered with yoghurt and drinks and has been hit around the head with bags, branches and fists - even ending up in A&E with suspected concussion.

Sally soon refused to go to school. Even when Wendy, a secondary school teacher herself, drove her in, she wouldn?t stay for long. The education welfare service took Wendy to court for her daughter?s truancy.

Sally started running away - three times over the course of two weeks this summer - and started to drink, steal and be verbally and physically abusive. She was revolted by her body and dropped to six and half stone in an attempt to halt puberty.

?I can deal with Sally, I can deal with the CAMHS (child and adolescent mental health services), the clinic, the home tutoring and everything else, but when the school plays games, it just gets too much,? says Wendy.

She?s referring to the fact that there was no single person for her daughter to go to for help; that staff wouldn?t return her calls for days; that Sally was offered no alternative accommodation where she could take her GCSEs; that the school hasn?t taken up the training offered by the LGBT (lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender) police and that the school insisted the multi-disciplinary meetings could no longer be held in her home, despite it being the only place where Sally feels safe.

?I know kids can be cruel, but I?m angrier with the school for how it has, or hasn?t, dealt with it,? says Wendy. ?I?m so glad my child is transitioning away from school. It?s a relief for her that she can be herself now.?

Yes this is me and my child.

Why can't a transgendered person be a feminist If the are born in the wrong body? As my child is MTF she is more female than male. The only part of my child that is male is her outer shell.

Surely as human beings we should ALL be fighting for the right of EVERYBODY.

im also a parent of a transgender child and i also find this implication insulting!
we help and support our children-[just like any other parent would if theyre child had a condition]
it is not abuse to help a child with a condition!
it is a condition that goes far deeper than just liking a certain colour or toy!

"i mean feminists could do the humane thing and just allow these boys and men to become women"

OH DEAR!!!

It's funny isn't it, that men can write things lke "all women are bitches" on t'interweb and other media and no-one speaks of hatespeak but as soon as women start discussing the nature of what it is to be a woman, they get threatened with the police.

Oh the irony.

There seems to be confusion were people on both sides of the argument are accused of reinforcing gender stereotypes. I really don't understand why Dittany is being accused of this at such great length, when she clearly doesn't agree with such stereotypes.

It seems quite obvious that some people on this thread think that the term female refers to people who are born with female reproductive potential.

I can't find anywhere on this thread (although perhaps I have missed it) an explantion of what people who think trans gender women are female define a woman as. It seems to not even be about wanting a female body, as most trans gender people are not seeking surgery according to the links/quotes put up, and even those that are focus on the genitals and not other parts of the female body.

So we now have more people on here that think trans gender women are female, could one of you please define what a female or woman is? Because I have been waiting 17 pages for an explanation.

Hmmm... the argument that men can use negative terminology openly regards women such as your 'all women are bitches' and nothing happen to them, whilst a negative comment about transgendered individuals would constitute 'hate speak' is a off the mark. You are in fact condoning the use of negative terminology in relation to women by implying it is a feminists right to define transgender people with similar, although not as overt, negative connotations.

Disappointing to read an argument that relies on the, 'well they say those bad things and get away with it, so why can't we say our own bad things'...

Lepapa, because all adults should be equal when deciding what is and is not a criminal offence.

Obviously.

So it is a very straightforward argument that someone should not be more liable to prosecution related to hate crime simply because they are a woman.

I blame Greer personally.....

Um no lepapa, we haven't said anything negative about transgender people, that's my point.

We are discussing the nature of being a woman and some people don't like some aspects of our discusssion. That's hardly in the saeem category as saying "all women are bitches", is it?

And I'd really like to know what the definition of a woman is as well.