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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Recommend me a book!

1001 replies

RibenaBerry · 24/06/2010 13:11

Right, reading these boards recently has given me a bit of a kick up the arse on my feminist principles. I've done a bit of 'light' reading in the area (think The Beauty Myth as a teenager) but think I need something a bit more serious without being so weighty I never pick it up. I'd rather have something published in, say, the last 15 years than any of the 'classics'.

Any ideas?

OP posts:
Sakura · 08/07/2010 05:14

Why don't you change society?
Why change the child?
Aren't you implying that there's something wrong with the child by forcing them to conform to society?
I rather think there's something wrong with society and I will be pushing to change that, not inflicting shame on transgendered children.
What if a child doesn't have loving parents? What if they live in a poor country where there's no access to make-up or hormones or operations or what have you?
Pretending the sex lines can be crossed is damaging to these children. Pretending they're 'girls' just because they play with dolls is damaging.
Boys play with dolls too. There is no 'pink and sparkly girl brain'. DEAL WITH IT.

Sakura · 08/07/2010 05:23

And I would really like to know who told that little boy all about vaginas when he was fucking three years old. What three year old needs to know that-- Boy or girl? I think it's damaging to tell a little boy all about vaginas just because he likes dolls. And quite traumatizing probably.
They had a pair of pink roller skates on him and a dress when he was about two. WHY? Are girls not capable of liking any other colour.
And when the poor little mite was performing on stage he looked absolutely miserable. Some kids love being on stage, that boy didn't.
The point you seem to be missing earwicga is tthat, above all, trans kids are human. But it's an easy mistake to make. Women aren't human, are they?

Sakura · 08/07/2010 07:30

WHen my little boy plays with dolls, as he often does, and prams (although I've noticed when he plays with prams people say 'Ah, he likes wheels, does he?'), I just assume that's what kids of his age do. If. when he's older he happens to desire typically feminine thing I will ACCEPT HIM FOR WHO HE IS, not force him to believe he's a girl because I'm too backward to realise that boys can't like pink and girls can't like blue

Sakura · 08/07/2010 07:36

too backward to realise that boys can like pink and girls can like blue.

I really resent being accused of bigotry earwicga when it's you who is too bigoted to expand the possibilities of what members of each sex can do.

wastingaway · 08/07/2010 07:54

I see lots of very masculine women. That's just what they are, women who are dressed and behave in a masculine way.

There are some feminine men. Perhaps not as many as the women, as it's more frowned on in men.

And if this is about changing gender rather than sex, why does it have to be more than that? Why the medical intervention?

All this liking dolls and dressing up is the worst sexist bullshit.

Blackduck · 08/07/2010 08:26

So instead of a list of links we now just get a huuuge cut and paste job....I feel like I am being hit over the head with a large mallet .....

dittany · 08/07/2010 08:32

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Sakura · 08/07/2010 08:41

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

Sakura · 08/07/2010 08:52

"why does it have to be more than that? Why the medical intervention"

Because 'patriarchy' is horrified at the thought that members of their sex can be feminine. A man who likes pink? Soch horror! He can't be one of me. He must be one of those...whatsitsnames...those wimmin?

wastingaway · 08/07/2010 09:02

That's it Sakura. Better a mutilated 'woman' than a 'queer' man.

Sakura · 08/07/2010 09:07

Precisely.

Sakura · 08/07/2010 09:09

That is what causes suicides, not feminists.

Pogleswood · 08/07/2010 10:47

But,but,but - Sakura you have just said that he will not be able to be a soccer player.
So girls can't play soccer? Well,that is a surprise - here's me thinking that women's professional soccer was doing ok...

You are reading into the clips what you think is there.I am too,I expect - but we do not know this child,or his family.No family is going to take lightly the idea that their boy should live as a girl(they have older children,don't they,2 boys and a girl).
My son played with all sorts of stuff,and dressed in his sister's clothes - it never occured to me to think he was a girl - and I don't think any normal parent would think that. I realise the argument then is that Jazz's parents are not normal loving parents - but we do not have enough evidence to judge.We don't know them,or Jazz,or the professionals who are involved with them.

"Pretending they're 'girls' just because they play with dolls is damaging.
Boys play with dolls too. There is no 'pink and sparkly girl brain'. DEAL WITH IT."
No one is saying there is a pink and sparkly brain.I have spent time on MN arguing against the existence of the female brain.That doesn't mean that I don't accept the possibility that some XX people could feel that they are men,and vice versa.

You seem to be saying Sakura,that trangender is an artefact caused by society's stereotypical views on gender.But without removing the stereotypes completely there is no way of knowing that,or of separating nature from nurture.

You can work to change society and if you are right and this in entirely a society induced phenomonon then it will go away,as society changes.If there is a basis in biology then it won't.In the meantime what about transgender people living in society as it is now?

Sakura · 08/07/2010 11:07

The mind boggles.
A boy who, at the age of two, likes stereptypical girls things: dolls, pink etc, is told he must be a girl and is dressed accordingly: long hair, pink dress etc.

Then, when he says he prefers a stereotypical boy's hobby, and appears not to be interested in the pink clothes his mum has foisted on him, rather than follow the same train of thought , a NEW argument is then brought in: 'No, boys and girls can like any hobby"

COuldn't they have brought in that second argument first?

Pogleswood · 08/07/2010 11:24

well,it isn't a new argument for me - I've always thought girls and boys can like any hobby....

"A boy who, at the age of two, likes stereptypical girls things: dolls, pink etc, is told he must be a girl and is dressed accordingly: long hair, pink dress etc". This is not at all how I read the clips.You are assuming that the sole reason for the family to feel Jazz was transgender was because of the stereotypical stuff.

LIZ HAYES: There must have been a point where you were resisting, almost trying to change what Jazz was doing?

RENEE: Yeah, and I thought, "If it is a passing phase, it will pass." Scott was a little bit more resistant. He was, you know, at first, like, was not as cool about it.

LIZ HAYES: Well, I guess most dads would probably find this difficult.

SCOTT: Yeah, it was difficult. I wanted to try and have Jazz do more things that were ah intuitively 'boy'.

This doen't read to me like a family telling their 2 year old that he was a girl because he liked pink...
The thing about pink etc is that lots of little girls want pink and sparkly,because they see that that is what is associated with the gender they know themselves to be.So why not with a transgender child too?

Sakura · 08/07/2010 11:26

I think pandering to all these surgeons and pharmaceutical companies' desire to make money out of peoples' personal unhappiness is going to cause more problems for these kids.

Sakura · 08/07/2010 11:27

"SCOTT: Yeah, it was difficult. I wanted to try and have Jazz do more things that were ah intuitively 'boy'."

And because he wasn't doing things intuitively 'boy' his father concluded he must be.... a girl???

Sakura · 08/07/2010 11:29

I've got to go out now Poggles, I know we're both so sucked in it's unreal. This has been the worst thread.

Pogleswood · 08/07/2010 11:38

Yes,Sakura,I have to go and do one of the many jobs piling up around me - and to nag DD about spending too much time on Facebook

See you around!

NatachaK · 08/07/2010 12:58

Dittany;

I would have to strongly disagree with your suggestion that parents who allow their child to express a non-typical gender identity are child abusers, indeed I would go further than that and argue that it is you who is advocating child abuse here.
A lot of people here seem to be putting their own spin on Jazz?s videos on youtube, claiming she is not happy etc. Indeed these people are indulging in the worst behaviour of bigoted transphobes the world over; namely deliberately using the wrong gender. The minimum Jazz deserves is for her to be recognised in the gender she chooses to present. Your deliberate use of ?he? effectively erases her chosen identity and is imposing your own bias on her identity. Your behaviour in this respect reveals a hidden agenda, by denying her the right to express herself in the way she wishes you are effectively denying her the right to exist as a human being. I find this particularly distasteful.
Further than this however you appear to have decided that she is ?miserable? and being forced to be transgender. The basis for this spin you place on her is largely on subjective elements which again demonstrate your own biases and prejudices.
As a primary school teacher with 20 years experience I know that the tone of Jazz?s performance on stage is pretty normal whenever you get kids of her age performing on stage. Indeed I would be very surprised, and frankly quite concerned if any child got up on stage and performed like one of the contestants in ?Little Miss Sunshine?. The mere fact that she is up on stage and performing at all demonstrates positive self-image of the kind good parents should be encouraging in their child.
However it is the suggestion that parents who accept their transgender child?s behaviour and do not try and enforce normatively gendered behaviour against the clear wishes of the child, are somehow abusing their children. This is a particularly nasty and pernicious view. In expressing this view you are effectively advocating the psychological torture of transgender children. 20 to 30 years ago, a small group of psychiatrists in Midwestern America and Canada advocated the same sort of treatment for transgender children as you do. The ?treatment? for trans children was the same treatment used by a number of right-wing Christian organisations to ?treat? homosexuality in adults; Aversion therapy, a form of psychological torture which has been shown, not merely to fail, but to result in depression and suicidal tendencies in its victims. Aversion therapy is not based on any credibly psychological theories accepted within the psychological/psychiatric community
As such Dittany, you are advocating a form of homespun aversion therapy; this has been tried extensively in the United States, again largely in the right-wing bible belt, on transgender children. The children were subjected to punishments for engaging in behaviour related to their desired gender identity and had all clothes and toys relating to this removed from them. They were given rewards for the behaviour the adults wanted. Needless to say this resulted in extensive loss of self-esteem, underperformance at school and psychological problems I have described.
Unfortunately parents in this country still seem to indulge this sort of crude exercise of power when it comes to transgender children, as your deliberate misgendering of Jazz suggests, the Dittany Doctrine represents a dehumanising of trans kids to the extent that their treatment should be the same as the treatment one would subject animals, such as dogs to. I taught a transgender 5-year-old child once. She wanted to be a girl and was completely open about this. As a result of social pressure from others in the local community, who expressed similar opinions to yours, her parents decided to prevent her from being a girl and from expressing her identity. To this end they removed everything she liked including clothes and toys. When this failed they resorted to violence. In the knowledge that they would not be permitted to beat their child in the UK, they sent her to her uncle in Bangladesh who gave her a dress and then beat her black and blue with a stick. She was kept there until the cuts and bruises healed and she was shipped back to the UK. As soon as she got back into the classroom she went straight to the dressing-up box and emerged as a princess?
This continued to happen several times with social services claiming they cold not act because the assaults were occurring outside the UK. The child?s mental health deteriorated substantially throughout this time and by the time she left the school she was being treated for depression, and was self-harming. When I challenged her parents about her treatment, they said they did not want to be considered bad parents and were being criticised by members of the local community and were petrified of being ostracized by people expressing similar opinions to yours.
Therefore your statement will effectively result in parents, like those of the child I taught, being pressured into what is effectively the exercise of coercive physical power and torture of transgender children. As such I believe your comments are not merely an example of extreme ignorance but they constitute incitement to child abuse. It is you who is the child abuser on this thread.
In terms of research into how best to deal with transgender children two studies are particularly important, Ghasemi studied a transgender child in Iran and Matzner studied transgender children in Hawaii. These studies were carried out in 1999 and 2001. The significance of them is the fact that Iran has a particularly low tolerance of transgender children, a country in which the Dittany Doctrine is dominant, where they are generally treated in a way which you would approve of, their gender identities are considered problematic and they are forced, often under the threat of violence and social exclusion, to conform to normatively gendered behaviour. Hawaii, by contrast, has a culture, similar to many countries in the Asia-Pacific region, which accepts transgender people and transgender children. The Iranian child became a social outcast, was bullied, not merely by her own family but by other children, other children?s parents and teachers in her schools, she self harmed and attempted suicide. In Hawaii, Matzner?s study revealed children who were accepted by their communities, schools and families and who grew up as well-adjusted, productive and happy members of society. Indeed, so much so that Hawaii has elected a transgender woman as its state governor.
This demonstrates that the Dittany Doctrine, whilst being applied by amateur ?comonsense? psychiatrists against transgender children on a regular basis throughout the western world and beyond, results in children who are subjected to amateur psychological torture, bullied, assaulted, humiliated and who develop with low self-esteem, depression, self-harming tendencies and potentially suicidal tendencies.
My own research into the lives of transgender children, which will be published in a peer-reviewed academic journal in the Autumn demonstrates the damage which the Dittany Doctrine causes to transgender children. This results in less than a third of trans children telling anyone they are trans before they are 18, and in most of those cases they wait until they are 15 or more before they tell anyone, and then they most commonly tell a gay or lesbian friend rather than their parents because they are aware of the likely consequences of revealing who they are.
The concealment and suppression that are the consequences of the social non-acceptance of the Dittany Doctrine result in substantial underachievement in school, low self-esteem and self-hatred which has consequences for these people well into adulthood, in many cases causing them to have psychological problems.
The evidence suggests that the implications of the type of statement you have made here represent a particularly good illustration of the prejudice which transgender children are up against throughout their childhoods. Interestingly 7% of transgender children in primary school reported being bullied by other children?s parents. Your attitude represents a particularly good example of the multilevel prejudice these children have to face.
Contrary to what you suggest, parents with transgender children who allow them to be who they are and to freely express their personalities are being human, caring and especially supportive of their children. That they are doing so in the face of the sort of prejudice and social coercion demonstrates a particularly high level of courage in protecting their kids against people like you.

Sakura · 08/07/2010 14:04

So it's feminist's fault they refuse to allow women to be the catch all sex for any males who don't fit the norm.

Men and patriarchy get off scott free for refusing to allow males of their own sex to be accepted.

Sakura · 08/07/2010 14:06

I mean feminists could do the humane thing and just allow all these boys and men to become women. But the more logical answer would be for patriarchy to allow them to become members of their own sex. But heaven forbid we rock the status quo; and as we all know it's much easier to bully and intimidate a few women than it is to force men to accept that they come in many different colours apart from blue.

Sakura · 08/07/2010 14:11

"low self-esteem and self-hatred which has consequences for these people well into adulthood, in many cases causing them to have psychological problems."

THis is a mandatory right of passage for your average female.
Females are forced to hate their bodies and wonder whether they should cut them up to become the designated physical norm ascribed to their gender.

Why is it wrong for feminists to reject the idea that people who feel uncomfortable in their bodies should change them? Why is it wrong to focus on changing society's bigoted view about how a man or woman should look and behave?

NatachaK · 08/07/2010 14:15

BTW, looking back through this thread a bit more, I think Mumsnet have been particularly complicit in permitting statements which are clearly transphobic and constitute hate-crime or incitement to hate-crime.

I suspect, once some parents of transgender children get to hear about this, Mumsnet and some of the contributors to this thread will be reported to the police.

Sakura · 08/07/2010 14:18

And stop confounding and changing what we're saying. We're saying it's great for kids to express their identities; we're saying it's not so great that someone who likes dresses and pink things must be a female.
Let's break the script, man.

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